Going further then just manpower.

[FieldMedic]

This will not likely come to pass in Hearts of Iron 4 but I think the concept of manpower should be taken further.

I would like to see the game force you to divide your manpower into branches of the military along with an unassigned reserve. A percentage that the player decides going to each of the major branches that will be trained over time to serve in that branch.

The idea being that you can't just take someone directly out of your manpower pool and stick them in an aircraft or a tank or on the crew of a ship. Even an untrained infantryman isn't much use.

Now the idea of creating a unit has training conceptualized in part by the time it takes to complete production but losses replacement does not. One of Britain's greatest problems during the Battle of Britain was having more fighters then they had pilots for. One of the major problems facing Germany at the end was a lack of trained personnel of all kinds.

These are issues that the current system overlooks. As long as your manpower isn't zero you can stick a guy in a Spitfire and he can fly instantly without training, albeit more poorly then a veteran pilot. I would contest that the process of just being trained to fly shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[jcd000]

I don't like the current supply system, but one of its strong points is that it models exactly this.
Afaik, manpower in HOI4 won't be used raw to reinforce an aiplane div. Rather, the player has to produce planes to reinforce them, and planes take training into account at construction.

For infantry, it may not be so, but raw recruits could be modeled to be quite a bit worse than professionals or veterans... (i think this is the case)

This is all miles away to really delving into manpower, but it sounds to me like it can work well enough for HOI.

 

[panzerzombie]

A single plane needs about double the time to produce a medium tank and similar time to a heavy tank.......you need to train both tanks for a long time, airplanes not at all......that is a weak system.

 

[Vukodav]

I don't like the current supply system, but one of its strong points is that it models exactly this.
Afaik, manpower in HOI4 won't be used raw to reinforce an aiplane div. Rather, the player has to produce planes to reinforce them, and planes take training into account at construction.

For infantry, it may not be so, but raw recruits could be modeled to be quite a bit worse than professionals or veterans... (i think this is the case)

This is all miles away to really delving into manpower, but it sounds to me like it can work well enough for HOI.

Well previous games had construction too. For instance you had to spend IC to reinforce. It was abstracted but you were spending IC and manpower to reinforce, so one could think of it as production as well - IC spent is spend on production of new weapons while the manpower is used to man them. Now it's just explicit, instead of the dedicated reinforce bar where you designate industry for it, you will do reinforcement equipment though the construction IC.

 

[Axe99]

Totally agree FieldMedic, would be great to see some capacity for training of personnel in all services, and also for the potential to shift people from one service to another (for example, the Russians took a lot of their naval personnel from the black sea fleet and put them in the army). Costs for training pilots (in fuel and minor levels of attrition for old planes) would also be a good thing imo.

 

[paulatreides0]

No, that makes no sense. Pretty much everyone in this time period was a normal civilian given a gun/stuck in a tank/rifle/ship trained how to use it, and sent out to use it. The manpower pool is representative of the number of able bodied men capable of service that your country can field in all services. The distinctions that did exist between them (e.g. pilots needing good vision and preferably not being super large) are too small to worry about and are best left abstracted.

Training is also abstracted in that it is assumed that training is taken into account along with the construction of the craft, so that when it is delivered to you in a finished state it has undergone both the construction of the craft and the training of the pilot who pilots it. This is why increasing the training level also increases the building time of all units (although it's rather ridiculous that it increases building times for things like battleships that already take tons of time to build).

It makes zero sense to have completely different manpower pools because all branches of services drew from the same manpower pool, although some had some specific limitations on who could qualify for what (which are best left abstracted). Since reinforcements require the building of individual craft, and thus the abstracted training of them, then the system is consistent at this level too.

Taking a guy off the street, giving him some basic training, and then shoving him in a plane/giving him a gun/assigning him to a ship is exactly what happened in real life. The only real exception being officers who, of course, need a far more in-depth education.

 

[agentgb]

In hoi4 its looking like you can train your divisions once you have built them, i guess the building stage could be considered basic boot camp training, the actual training in the field stage could be considered practicing battle maneuver, then there's on the job training through combat which gives combat experience. During the blitz, most pilots didn't last a week and only had minimal hours of flight experience.

HOI3 Training:
Build/Train units according to your policies
Bloody the unit

Building the unit with volunteer status i believe? would increase experience/combat efficiency, but took a longtime unless building enmass. This was true to all branches, airforce/navy/army

HOI4 Training:
Build the unit
Train the unit
Bloody the unit

Although i'm not sure if it the same now for the other two branches being airforce/navy, since i haven't seen anything in hoi4 to determine if squadrons or fleets can conduct field training prior to any conflict.

To me, it seems that a bit more control has been given to how and when you may wish to train your units, atleast with the army anyway. I know Hitler was very keen to keep control of the baltic since it allowed for the training of new submarine commanders/crews. It would be neat to have sub crews conducting a few months training in the baltic before launching them into the atlantic. It was also the reason why hitler gave the stand & fight/die orders to army group north so that the kriegmarine could continue to use the baltic for training.

 

[Axe99]

Taking a guy off the street, giving him some basic training, and then shoving him in a plane/giving him a gun/assigning him to a ship is exactly what happened in real life. The only real exception being officers who, of course, need a far more in-depth education.

There were substantial differences in pilot training practices between Japan/Germany and US/UK (I'm not up to speed with Soviet training practices) that had a strategic impact on the capacity of their air forces. In no small part because the US/UK had more fuel to play with, their pilots got more training prior to combat, and then performed better in combat. Further, things like pilot recovery in the Battle of Britain (trained and experienced pilot put back in a new plane) and I'd expect the air defence of Germany (I can't recall reading anything, but I imagine there was a fair amount of it) would also mean that the HoI4 model of 'one level of experience fits all' doesn't fit the strategic situation of the period.

I'd think it was something better suited for mods than the base game, as it may make the base game a bit complicated for folk that don't want that level of detail, but I'd love to see it in a mod.

 

[BBBD316]

Well reading Roald Dahl's Going Solo he really didn't get that much training before seeing action in Greece, heck he only had 7 hours training before he started flying solo.

I assume that we are meant to abstract that the entire process includes this training, the army has green recruits with basic training when you deploy, you can train them before the war to get a bit more experience, but until they see combat they are pretty raw.

 

[Daelyn75]

A single plane needs about double the time to produce a medium tank and similar time to a heavy tank.......you need to train both tanks for a long time, airplanes not at all......that is a weak system.

Agreed. In fact I think the airplane system is the weakest part of the game, and it really could use a nice work over in a future DLC if they do nothing to change it up to launch.

 

[BBBD316]

Well are we talking about the on map training?

 

[panzerzombie]

Well reading Roald Dahl's Going Solo he really didn't get that much training before seeing action in Greece, heck he only had 7 hours training before he started flying solo.

I assume that we are meant to abstract that the entire process includes this training, the army has green recruits with basic training when you deploy, you can train them before the war to get a bit more experience, but until they see combat they are pretty raw.

Hm, you forgot to mention the rest of the story, he flew solo after 7 hours but then got at least half a year additional training before seeing combat.

"With seven hours and 40 minutes experience in a De Havilland Tiger Moth, he flew solo;[33] Dahl enjoyed watching the wildlife of Kenya during his flights. He continued to advanced flying training in Iraq, at RAF Habbaniya, 50 miles (80 km) west ofBaghdad. He was commissioned pilot officer on 24 August 1940.[34] Following six months' training on Hawker Harts, Dahl was made an acting pilot officer"

 

[LostinSpice]

Army units and reinforcements start as 'green' so they have at least done basic training. Airplanes train at the same time as pilots. Ships I guess is the same as they come off the slipways as 'green'. So I'd say I content with e current way things are but open to better ways of managing manpower if they prove to be good for game play.