Going feudal

[Silens]

For the vassal, crown authority 3 will stop him from taking territory from your other vassals.

But it won't stop his sub-vassals, it only applies to the king of Sweden as direct vassal.

Sweden is already my vassal

In that case... I agree with @Allen418, you have a very confusing realm going.

But I can give you the standard tools to deal with strong vassals: alliance through marriage, get dread to 100 and hope that the king of Sweden gets terrified, go diplomacy lifestyle and propose alliance without marriage, take befriend perk and make him a friend.

That's how you can keep him out of any faction.

Long-term I'd try to set up his heir in a marriage with someone from your dynasty, so that your dynasty gets the title. Then you can use your position as house/dynasty head to get a claim on this title.

Or provoke an uprising and win, that'll give you a reason to revoke his titles. Though I somehow doubt that you're strong enough for that, if your fear is said uprising in the first place. Sounds to me like you have a very limited personal domain and a weak army. You should consider doing something about it.

 

[Androgladen]

It probably is. After I went feudal it kind of went to the toilet for a generation, as I was usurped from the empire as well as the kingdom, only to have the usurper insert elective for all titles, and then vote in my eldest son. But during that transition, and in that first succession after going feudal, a lot of things happend that I don't understand. It's my first game, and hence this post. Sweden now owns a lot of Norway and a lot of England, for some reason. But as per the screenshot, is currently suffering after internal war. However I am afraid what will happen if they gain stability. I like the idea of trying to marry in my heirs.

 

[Silens]

It probably is. After I went feudal it kind of went to the toilet for a generation, as I was usurped from the empire as well as the kingdom, only to have the usurper insert elective for all titles, and then vote in my eldest son. But during that transition, and in that first succession after going feudal, a lot of things happend that I don't understand. It's my first game, and hence this post. Sweden now owns a lot of Norway and a lot of England, for some reason. But as per the screenshot, is currently suffering after internal war. However I am afraid what will happen if they gain stability. I like the idea of trying to marry in my heirs.

I don't want to come off as mean, but to me it seems you heavily mismanaged/neglected your personal domain. Having only 12.7g/month from 7 domains after 200 years is... well, not good. Like, at all.

This isn't unsalvageable, but you'll need to focus on getting your core domain up and running. Instead, you over-expanded, collected a huge amount of useless vassals and now they're exploiting your very weak position.

First thing, when you start as tribal in Scandinavia, and you plan on going feudal one day, your best bet is to conquer feudal lands and make them your crown jewels. England is a good candidate for that. You could make the duchies of Kent and Wessex your personal domain, tie both titles to your heir by using feudal elective, and make sure that this core domain is always at the very cutting edge of innovation and development.

Then you need a core army. This is your fist, your shield, your armor, your sword, basically your everything. If your army is strong enough, you can provoke uprisings just to get rid of unwanted vassals. Because there's almost no risk involved. Since you're Norse, you have access to the probably best infantry in the game (short of Palatini): Varangian Veterans. With a bit of planning you could've got a cultural hybrid going for Eastern Roman Legacy and the lvl 2 Pillage dynasty legacy. Both would give you +2 heavy infantry cap each, for a combined +4 per heavy infantry stack. That makes a huge difference if you go all in on that.

But such an army is hugely expensive, and it all hinges on your personal domain being able to afford it. That is the root of all your problems, your weak personal domain. You can struggle for centuries to stay on top, and maybe you will manage it, but it will always be a struggle until you solve this problem.

I can offer you to have a look at your save file, then I can tell you exactly how to salvage your situation. That much I could do, if you like.

 

[Androgladen]

I don't want to come off as mean, but to me it seems you heavily mismanaged/neglected your personal domain. Having only 12.7g/month from 7 domains after 200 years is... well, not good. Like, at all.

This isn't unsalvageable, but you'll need to focus on getting your core domain up and running. Instead, you over-expanded, collected a huge amount of useless vassals and now they're exploiting your very weak position.

First thing, when you start as tribal in Scandinavia, and you plan on going feudal one day, your best bet is to conquer feudal lands and make them your crown jewels. England is a good candidate for that. You could make the duchies of Kent and Wessex your personal domain, tie both titles to your heir by using feudal elective, and make sure that this core domain is always at the very cutting edge of innovation and development.

Then you need a core army. This is your fist, your shield, your armor, your sword, basically your everything. If your army is strong enough, you can provoke uprisings just to get rid of unwanted vassals. Because there's almost no risk involved. Since you're Norse, you have access to the probably best infantry in the game (short of Palatini): Varangian Veterans. With a bit of planning you could've got a cultural hybrid going for Eastern Roman Legacy and the lvl 2 Pillage dynasty legacy. Both would give you +2 heavy infantry cap each, for a combined +4 per heavy infantry stack. That makes a huge difference if you go all in on that.

But such an army is hugely expensive, and it all hinges on your personal domain being able to afford it. That is the root of all your problems, your weak personal domain. You can struggle for centuries to stay on top, and maybe you will manage it, but it will always be a struggle until you solve this problem.

I can offer you to have a look at your save file, then I can tell you exactly how to salvage your situation. That much I could do, if you like.

No worries! I am totally new, and got VERY caught up in Viking conquest.

I did figure some of that out eventually, so my two duchies are now in the southern part of England, with most of my counties within, as elective succession.

Yeah, I've been struggling with the gold upkeep ever since transitioning to feudal, that hit me hard, and I didn't know it was coming. Hence the migration to Middlesex/Buckinghamshire, and building up those for increased gold revenue. But still a long way to go.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

I don't want to come off as mean, but to me it seems you heavily mismanaged/neglected your personal domain.

to be clear, this means 'build stuff,' especially duchy buildings, and special buildings if you can.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Yeah, I've been struggling with the gold upkeep ever since transitioning to feudal, that hit me hard, and I didn't know it was coming.

it happens every time. you have to be prepared for it. for me this means 'all the vassals love me.' others say 'have lots of cash'

 

[Silens]

Yes, a very long way to go. Here are a few generic tips, going by the information from your screenshot:

• Ally with Sweden (by marriage or diplomacy), or befriend them. Should give you a couple of years of peace.
• Take up Stewardship and get Golden Obligations and Extort Subjects, that'll secure you a bit of extra gold to develop your domain
• Your steward should increase development in your capital. 30 development isn't great, but in 1100AD you shouldn't be lower than that.
• Hybridize with an advanced culture, that'll give you quick access to many innovations (like better economy buildings). French is a good option here, as is Dutch (for Polders). I can tell that your culture is lagging way behind, when you're at 1070AD and don't have all Early Medieval innovations (because higher crown authority isn't unlocked yet).
• Religion should have theocratic rule, then realm priests will provide up to 50% of their income at +100 opinion without burdening your domain limit. Since you already organized your faith, you'll have to branch out and create the schism.
• Manor Houses and Fields & Farms are the best economic buildings, in that order. Build them when you can. After that it's Tradeports (for the development bonus), Pastoral Lands, Hill Farms, Forestry, Hunting Grounds and Walls & Towers.
• Duchy buildings are a separate issue, but if you're going for a big, expensive MaA army, it's better to invest in buildings like Blacksmiths or whatever type of MaA you mainly use. The important part is the MaA upkeep reduction. My MaA alone cost me 160g/month, so stacking four times -10% upkeep reduction is equivalent to over 60g/month.

There's more... well, there's always more. But at the very least it should give you a sense of direction.

 

[Allen418]

It probably is. After I went feudal it kind of went to the toilet for a generation, as I was usurped from the empire as well as the kingdom, only to have the usurper insert elective for all titles, and then vote in my eldest son. But during that transition, and in that first succession after going feudal, a lot of things happend that I don't understand. It's my first game, and hence this post. Sweden now owns a lot of Norway and a lot of England, for some reason. But as per the screenshot, is currently suffering after internal war. However I am afraid what will happen if they gain stability. I like the idea of trying to marry in my heirs.

If it were me, I wouldn't sweat Sweden until it becomes an actual problem. As a rule of the thumb, the only vassals (who aren't actively trying to murder me or whatever) I typically worry about are rulers with high wealth, high development territories (e.g., Andalusia, Romagna), tribal vassals in early feudal empires (the tribal rulers get old and sometimes have huge numbers of inexpensive troops), and dukes that have managed to cobble together three+ duchies (the limit for dukes is much higher than for kings). Sometimes in the late game, after cultures start getting primogeniture and especially if you're map painting, you might get a vassal with multiple kingdoms and a strong core domain, whom you might consider putting the partition requirement in their contract, but you're two hundred years away from worrying about that.

Looking at the screen shot you posted, I'd devote more energy to conquering the south of England -- that's where all the money's at in de jure England, and then you can have the satisfaction of beating back the soft Christians when they come for you in a crusade. Always plenty of candidates for sacrifice at the celebratory blot after a failed Crusade.

Concerning income, @Silens gave you plenty of good advice. Personally, I don't really obsess over it too much -- so I don't often reform my religion so vassals seek indulgences from me, or create republican duchies plus Metropolitan legacy (although that's all fun to experiment with, so don't let me stand in your way) -- but my benchmark for minimum monthly income is to be able to raise my MAA's (which are typically the only units I'm raising when I go to war) and keep them raised while still having positive monthly income. So long as I can do that, the money will come in time, and by the mid-game I'll be looking for things to spend ducats on. As for the size of my army, I figure I only need to be defeat the armies of my neighbors, while sieging down fortifications in a reasonable amount of time, so I try not to overspend on MAA's.

 

[Androgladen]

to be clear, this means 'build stuff,' especially duchy buildings, and special buildings if you can.

Thanks! Anything else?
Also, as a tribal beginner, it seemed rough not to be able to build anything until having the proper feudal innovation, and adding the 25ish year penalty to the conversion. Took me basically a whole rulers life. My old capital was fully decked before going feudal, but seemed slightly wasted, considering it's not the feudal buildings you would want

 

[Androgladen]

Yes, a very long way to go. Here are a few generic tips, going by the information from your screenshot:

• Ally with Sweden (by marriage or diplomacy), or befriend them. Should give you a couple of years of peace.
• Take up Stewardship and get Golden Obligations and Extort Subjects, that'll secure you a bit of extra gold to develop your domain
• Your steward should increase development in your capital. 30 development isn't great, but in 1100AD you shouldn't be lower than that.
• Hybridize with an advanced culture, that'll give you quick access to many innovations (like better economy buildings). French is a good option here, as is Dutch (for Polders). I can tell that your culture is lagging way behind, when you're at 1070AD and don't have all Early Medieval innovations (because higher crown authority isn't unlocked yet).
• Religion should have theocratic rule, then realm priests will provide up to 50% of their income at +100 opinion without burdening your domain limit. Since you already organized your faith, you'll have to branch out and create the schism.
• Manor Houses and Fields & Farms are the best economic buildings, in that order. Build them when you can. After that it's Tradeports (for the development bonus), Pastoral Lands, Hill Farms, Forestry, Hunting Grounds and Walls & Towers.
• Duchy buildings are a separate issue, but if you're going for a big, expensive MaA army, it's better to invest in buildings like Blacksmiths or whatever type of MaA you mainly use. The important part is the MaA upkeep reduction. My MaA alone cost me 160g/month, so stacking four times -10% upkeep reduction is equivalent to over 60g/month.

There's more... well, there's always more. But at the very least it should give you a sense of direction.

How do I hybridize my culture?

Also, thanks for all the general advice! Man, my second game will be very different.. can't help but feeling this innocent playthrough may become nostalgic in the future. Causing problems because i have no plan, inadvertantly following in the footsteps of the original Norse conquerors. Not to mention not fretting about benchmarks according to timeline, because I have no clue!

 

[Silens]

How do I hybridize my culture?

Your current culture and your target culture have to be both present in your realm. Then their acceptance needs to be 40% (or 20% if you're Norse and have the Malleable Invaders tradition, which is powerful). After that you click that culture and click the "create hybrid" button. That, and you need the Royal Court DLC.

As always, there's much more to say about how this works, how to increase acceptance, the court events etc., but yeah, that's the short of it.

Also, thanks for all the general advice! Man, my second game will be very different..

You're welcome. And yes, your next game will become a better one. We learn from our mistakes, after all. When I think back to my first few games, I learned something new every time. After a while it becomes second nature, and managing things becomes easy.

 

[thomas4545459]

The best way to avoid succesion issues is by disinherinting everyone I just keep all of my renown for this and divorce immideatly after having 2 heirs, then I wait like 30 years and try to get an child again disinherith everyone before him and succession issues solved, Best move is to make sure the first 2 heirs dont get childeren as well

 

[Androgladen]

If it were me, I wouldn't sweat Sweden until it becomes an actual problem. As a rule of the thumb, the only vassals (who aren't actively trying to murder me or whatever) I typically worry about are rulers with high wealth, high development territories (e.g., Andalusia, Romagna), tribal vassals in early feudal empires (the tribal rulers get old and sometimes have huge numbers of inexpensive troops), and dukes that have managed to cobble together three+ duchies (the limit for dukes is much higher than for kings). Sometimes in the late game, after cultures start getting primogeniture and especially if you're map painting, you might get a vassal with multiple kingdoms and a strong core domain, whom you might consider putting the partition requirement in their contract, but you're two hundred years away from worrying about that.

Looking at the screen shot you posted, I'd devote more energy to conquering the south of England -- that's where all the money's at in de jure England, and then you can have the satisfaction of beating back the soft Christians when they come for you in a crusade. Always plenty of candidates for sacrifice at the celebratory blot after a failed Crusade.

Concerning income, @Silens gave you plenty of good advice. Personally, I don't really obsess over it too much -- so I don't often reform my religion so vassals seek indulgences from me, or create republican duchies plus Metropolitan legacy (although that's all fun to experiment with, so don't let me stand in your way) -- but my benchmark for minimum monthly income is to be able to raise my MAA's (which are typically the only units I'm raising when I go to war) and keep them raised while still having positive monthly income. So long as I can do that, the money will come in time, and by the mid-game I'll be looking for things to spend ducats on. As for the size of my army, I figure I only need to be defeat the armies of my neighbors, while sieging down fortifications in a reasonable amount of time, so I try not to overspend on MAA's.

I think I am starting to get good control.

I've upped my monthly taxes by 300%, and congregated all of my holdings in the southern part of England. And I am constantly pumping development in Middlesex (London) which is now my capital.

I've just succeeded my previous ruler, and my heir had the befriend scheme, so I have befriended most of my powerful vassals. There's a massive crown control faction, but I think I will be able to handle it, as it inevitably comes to a revolt.

What I do not know, however, is how to retrieve a county from a vassal? It's the duchy capital of Hwicce, and I only just learned; it's a big mistake having a duchy, but not having the duchy capital in direct control, due to the duchy building. If I get the proper innovation, and get higher crown control, can I just revoke the title without inciting rebellion? Or what should my angle be here? I fabricated a claim on my previous ruler, but never used it, as it seemed like it might still cause a world of trouble if I just revoked it then.

 

[Silens]

can I just revoke the title without inciting rebellion?

Yes and no. It doesn't matter if you have the right to revoke a title or not, that only determines if you're going to get the tyranny opinion penalty. Though it's usually a good idea to avoid tyranny, if you're in a situation in which a good amount of vassals dislike you.

Anyway, if you can revoke or not depends on the target itself. If they're very weak, not ambitious, like you, and/or are terrified of you, then the likelihood of accepting a title revovation rises. If they decline, they'll rise up in rebellion against you - and everyone else who doesn't like you.

The only way to do it without rebellion is to revoke it while they're your prisoner. So, either you manage to imprison them via event (i.e. fornication if they're female, or if you criminalized adultery for males), via action (though it's still an act of tyranny if you do it without a just reason, and refusal causes an uprising) or if you abduct them via scheme (intrigue lifestyle).

Or you play the long game and murder your way through their entire dynasty, until there's no heir and you as the liege get to inherit their titles.

 

[Allen418]

I think I am starting to get good control.

I've upped my monthly taxes by 300%, and congregated all of my holdings in the southern part of England. And I am constantly pumping development in Middlesex (London) which is now my capital.

I've just succeeded my previous ruler, and my heir had the befriend scheme, so I have befriended most of my powerful vassals. There's a massive crown control faction, but I think I will be able to handle it, as it inevitably comes to a revolt.

What I do not know, however, is how to retrieve a county from a vassal? It's the duchy capital of Hwicce, and I only just learned; it's a big mistake having a duchy, but not having the duchy capital in direct control, due to the duchy building. If I get the proper innovation, and get higher crown control, can I just revoke the title without inciting rebellion? Or what should my angle be here? I fabricated a claim on my previous ruler, but never used it, as it seemed like it might still cause a world of trouble if I just revoked it then.

Typically, assuming the target county is held by my ruler’s direct vassal, my approach is to have my court chaplain start fabricating a claim. Meanwhile, assuming I have no reason to believe someone is trying to murder my ruler, I have my spymaster start finding secrets at the target’s court. It’s rare that I find a secret in the time it takes to fabricate the claim, but I figure what the heck — a hook on the vassal makes it easier.

Then once I have a claim, I revoke title. I’m pretty sure this revokes the claim without picking up tyranny. It will also means few, if any, of your other vassals will join a rebellion.

The most important part is, before revoking title, you have to look at the second tab on the pop up window and see what’s going to happen if he refuses. Most of the time it’ll tell you exactly who will rise up in rebellion. There’s one instance — I forget when; I think it’s when you come imprison the vassal of a vassal without just cause— where it only tells you ‘a rebellion will start’ or something kind of vague like that. In my experience, that means all of your vassals will go to war with you. So basically before you revoke the title read all of the fine print.

An emperor revoking a count’s title will have a pretty high acceptance unless the dude hates you.

 

[Androgladen]

Typically, assuming the target county is held by my ruler’s direct vassal, my approach is to have my court chaplain start fabricating a claim. Meanwhile, assuming I have no reason to believe someone is trying to murder my ruler, I have my spymaster start finding secrets at the target’s court. It’s rare that I find a secret in the time it takes to fabricate the claim, but I figure what the heck — a hook on the vassal makes it easier.

Then once I have a claim, I revoke title. I’m pretty sure this revokes the claim without picking up tyranny. It will also means few, if any, of your other vassals will join a rebellion.

The most important part is, before revoking title, you have to look at the second tab on the pop up window and see what’s going to happen if he refuses. Most of the time it’ll tell you exactly who will rise up in rebellion. There’s one instance — I forget when; I think it’s when you come imprison the vassal of a vassal without just cause— where it only tells you ‘a rebellion will start’ or something kind of vague like that. In my experience, that means all of your vassals will go to war with you. So basically before you revoke the title read all of the fine print.

An emperor revoking a count’s title will have a pretty high acceptance unless the dude hates you.

Alright, I've started that proces. Let's see how it goes. I've just got the stewardship perk to make vassals less likely to join factions, so maybe that will smoothen things over.

I keep being spammed by notes about how I can create a lot more kingdoms, and even a second empire within (I am the empire of noregr, which is curiously not scandinavia, which I can also create). I am not sure whether to go forward with creating the empire of Britannia as well? Will this help solidify my rule due to de jure titles, or will it just be another title to squabble over for my vassals, and to potentialle instigate more factions?

 

[Silens]

Will this help solidify my rule due to de jure titles, or will it just be another title to squabble over for my vassals, and to potentialle instigate more factions?

Holding all de jure titles will double your income from feudal obligations (more precisely, non de jure vassals have a x0.5 modifier to tax contribution), so it makes sense to have all those titles. It's always a good thing to be the rightful liege.

But in case of more than one heir and partition succession, something you'll probably have noticed by now, more than one title of equal level leads to a split of your realm. Which isn't a bad thing, necessarily, as it would allow you to ditch the problematic region of Noregr. It's not like it generates huge amounts of money anyway, right? They barely feudalized, there's not much of an economy there.

I'd keep Britannia as my primary title, the reduced amount of vassals - combined with your strong personal domain - would allow you to rule a very stable realm. Noregr, on the other hand, would crumble over time. You as a human already struggle with keeping Noregr together, the AI couldn't pull that off.

 

[Allen418]

Alright, I've started that proces. Let's see how it goes. I've just got the stewardship perk to make vassals less likely to join factions, so maybe that will smoothen things over.

I keep being spammed by notes about how I can create a lot more kingdoms, and even a second empire within (I am the empire of noregr, which is curiously not scandinavia, which I can also create). I am not sure whether to go forward with creating the empire of Britannia as well? Will this help solidify my rule due to de jure titles, or will it just be another title to squabble over for my vassals, and to potentialle instigate more factions?

What @Silens said about ditching Norwegr. Plus ditching it will increase your renown, because your dynasty will have a second emperor.

The only caveat I’d add is double check where the counties that give you control over your ruler’s culture come from. If the counties are in Noregr, then you’ll lose control if you split off. No big deal from a game play point of view — nowadays you can diverge or hybridize to take back control of your ruler’s control — but if you feel attached to the culture you currently are, you should take it into consideration. Similarly, you’ll lose control of Asartu holy sites.

I usually hold title creation in reserve, either for a quick injection of prestige for a new ruler or to manage factions (three or four unhappy counts become one moderately pleased duke who just received a duchy title and vassals from his ruler). That said, from a RP point of view I prefer fewer vassals, because I feel like the events read better with a handful of vassals that I can remember.

 

[Androgladen]

What @Silens said about ditching Norwegr. Plus ditching it will increase your renown, because your dynasty will have a second emperor.

The only caveat I’d add is double check where the counties that give you control over your ruler’s culture come from. If the counties are in Noregr, then you’ll lose control if you split off. No big deal from a game play point of view — nowadays you can diverge or hybridize to take back control of your ruler’s control — but if you feel attached to the culture you currently are, you should take it into consideration. Similarly, you’ll lose control of Asartu holy sites.

I usually hold title creation in reserve, either for a quick injection of prestige for a new ruler or to manage factions (three or four unhappy counts become one moderately pleased duke who just received a duchy title and vassals from his ruler). That said, from a RP point of view I prefer fewer vassals, because I feel like the events read better with a handful of vassals that I can remember.

Gotta admit I'm semi-roleplaying it, without intending to, because I've apparantly grown attached to my Asatrú and Norwegian culture, and feel like it should be part of my ruler's desires to spread it

A whole other line of questioning: If I control a county, and there's a temple, a castle or a city (or all of them) in the county, which is given to major or a godi or someone else to hold, does it make sense for me to construct buildings there? Do they give as much as if I controlled it myself, or is it just 5-10% feudal tax? Which would make it an exceedingly bad investment. In general, do you hoard all the holdings within a county, and spend your holding limit on this, or do you go for more counties?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

new questions should reaaally go in their own threads.