Going feudal

[Androgladen]

Hello everyone! Just bought the game recently and have been enjoying it throughoutly.

I started my game as a 1 county chieftain in Norway, and managed to gradually build my realm to an empire over the generations. Controlling all of Scandinavia, plus a bit of Germania, Brittania and the Baltic empire.
I was leading 40.000 men, and pretty much noone could stop me, and I was continually subjugating relatively large realms. So I decided now was the time to go for cultural and religious conquest, by reforming Asatrú, and converting all the Sami to Norwegian (diverged from Norse, without any difference). It seemed the game deigned feudal as the next step, and as it is in line with reforming and organizing my faith, I decided this was all good.

This is, however, when all my problems started.
Up until now I have kept my powerful vassals in check by bribing and swaying them, and always inherited my main 5-7 holdings, keeping a superior military power. All my own counties were maxed out in tribal buildings. With my previous ruler i reformed my faith and went feudal in the very end of his lifespan.
Going feudal reduced my income drastically, converted my MoA to costing gold, cut me down to around 25.000 men, and even gave my a penalty for having too low court grandeur, about which I could do nothing, as my gold income was too low. Not to mention I am unable to actually build ANYTHING feudal, and even starting to research the feudal innovations needed, I need to wait 24+ years. I held out for a few years, just building all the economy buildings I could in the new towns/castles that came in my counties as I went feudal.
... But then my ruler died of old age. And this is when shit hit the fan. I inhereted ONE (1) county, which was my original starting county. Leaving me with negative gold income, and about 7000 men. I am still emperor, but suddenly my siblings are now kings and queens of Lappland, Denmark, Sweden and Finland, who ALL of them revolt simultaneously.

Now I'm sitting here with my entire realm burning; fighting, and losing, against four usurpers, and I honestly do not know how I would have managed reforming my faith and going feudal without this happening. I am not even sure why I only inherited one county, as opposed to previously always inheriting all of my predecessors held counties.

Did I simply grow my realm too fast, and have the Empire implode upon itself? Any pointers for next time I aim to convert from tribal to feudal?

Edit: Another question; as I reformed Asatrú, it told me that all my vassals, except 6 of a different religion, would convert. However it turned out that about 65% did not, but remained as Old Asatrú. It seems this was all my vassals' vassals.. How would I prevent this from happening another time around?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

the transition from tribal to feudal is always brutal. make sure that everyone loves you before you do it.

 

[Greifental]

And this is when shit hit the fan. I inhereted ONE (1) county, which was my original starting county.

Did I simply grow my realm too fast, and have the Empire implode upon itself?

I would say yes. At least according to your inheritance problem. Since the succession laws should have remained the same between tribal and feudal.

 

[Androgladen]

the transition from tribal to feudal is always brutal. make sure that everyone loves you before you do it.

It took me a lifetime as a stewardship focused ruler to amass the piety do do the reformation, should I instead have waited a generation and used a learning focused ruler who could have done it, and still had time left to solidify the transition?

 

[Androgladen]

I would say yes. At least according to your inheritance problem. Since the succession laws should have remained the same between tribal and feudal.

I just remembered, I did get caught up in breeding good congenital traits, and disinherited my second son, due to lack thereof. This after my firstborn son went rogue and tried to have his brothers murdered and was imprisoned, where he died. Could this be part of the 1 county issue?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

It took me a lifetime as a stewardship focused ruler to amass the piety do do the reformation, should I instead have waited a generation and used a learning focused ruler who could have done it, and still had time left to solidify the transition?

it's not really about the ruler, but about everyone else in the realm

 

[Allen418]

Back in the old days, going from tribal to feudal used to be worse, which I guess is cold comfort now. Uphill both ways and all that.

A couple of things I watch out for:

When I'm a tribal, I only buy the MAA's I need, not the MAA's I can. They're cheap as a tribal, but expensive later when you've become civilized. And don't' be afraid to reduce the number of MAA's if you have to, which always makes me sad, but is better than watching them suck up all your money.

I don't build any buildings as a tribal ruler -- which is maybe a holdover from back before they changed it to make it less brutal, but I still think is good advice -- and right before I turn feudal, I make sure my capital is someplace that generates alright income, preferably someplace I've taken from a feudal lord, so it's already has some feudal buildings. If you're a Viking, Paris in the spring is nice

I try to make the transition to feudal with a ruler who's early in his reign and not with a ruler who's about to kick the bucket.

Raid, raid, raid before you lose the ability and make sure to have a lot of ducats socked away. I'm usually looking to have 5k+ saved up before I go feudal.

Watch your succession. Trying to rule with only one county is tough (I mean unless it's the right county, but there is no right county in Scandinavia). When that happens to my ruler, I try to conquer three or four counties as soon as I can.

During the transition, make a list of all the vassals that kicked you when you were down. Then get revenge. Probably doesn't help with the transition to feudal, but does help.

Anyway, it sounds like maybe you out kicked your coverage a little. But, honestly, I think it's mostly the unforeseen consequences that make it hard -- it effects a lot of pieces in the game and, for me at least, it was hard to understand what would happen. Next time you'll know what's coming and it'll be easier.

 

[Silens]

You fell for the classic blunder of partition succession. It can be navigated around, but you have to know what you're doing. Having multiple eligible heirs and a bunch of kingdom titles is a sure way into succession disaster.

Then you made the mistake of growing too big before feudalizing. I know, tribal makes it easy to grow out of control. But if you're big and can't manage your succession (i.e. by enacting succession elective laws), you'll end up with a weak heir and a big amount of very strong vassals. That's the quickest way to set yourself up for civil war.

What you should've done: secured a superior domain for your heir and made sure, through elective succession, that it's your heir who gets everything. Without this step it's almost impossible to stay in power, as you're nothing without a strong personal domain.

Then feudalizing is expensive, building everything up requires gold you don't have. In that situation wars will ruin you. So, building up money reserves is important. At least 2k gold, to build up your economy (and with that your monthly income) as fast as you can. Choose counties that have a good potential, i.e. land with 5+ barony slots, coastal regions, Farmlands/Floodplains and so on.

 

[Greifental]

This after my firstborn son went rogue and tried to have his brothers murdered and was imprisoned, where he died. Could this be part of the 1 county issue?

Check if your non-disinherited dead sons have children themselves. A grandchild will stand in for succession if their parent is dead. It could be the case that your realm was divided between your son and your grandchildren. That will happen both in feudal and tribal.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

This is a great and timely thread- thanks for all the comments. In my current "Brave and Bold" game, I will be trying to convert from Tribal to Feudal for the first time in CK3.

One thing I didn't see mentioned above is how Tribal building upgrades convert when you reform to Feudal. In CK2, it was very clear in game and in the wiki what you were getting in your Tribes when they became Castles. But in the CK3 wiki, the only comment I see on this is the below quote from the Buildings article:

Tribe holdings have only 4 buildings types of 2 buildings each available, but most buildings benefit the entire Realm. Reforming to feudal grants the same amount of random buildings as previously built in the province.

I'm not sure what this means. If I build a Longhouse Gathering Hall in my Tribal capital, will that upgrade not be retained when I switch to Feudal? Relevant wiki article is linked below:

Building - CK3 Wiki

ck3.paradoxwikis.com

 

[Androgladen]

Time for a follow up!
I was usurped by my sister, who ultimately claimed my Kingdom of Norway title as well.
However, the Empire title and the Kingdom of Denmark were up for election, and for some reason they voted in my son and heir. I volunteered to all his wars, to help keep him on the throne, until I got to a point where my current ruler died. So I am now back in charge of the great Empire!

However, it appears that the same hurdles will trip me once more.
There are now elections for both Empire and Kingdom titles, even though both appear set to be confederate partition. My player heir is thus my Uncle, the treacherous King of Lappland... Why is this? When I go under Realm, it cleary states confederate partition, and there are no options to change it to anything either, due to my lack of innovations. I have plenty of children, as per my misguided attempt at making a funny religion, that praises fornication and childbirth.
Moreover, it appears again, that all my different counties will be spread out among my children, where as all my own holdings previously did go to my primary heir. I asked something in the lines of this before, but never got a clear answer. Is this due to going Feudal? And how do you circumvect this? If you feel you're about to die of old age, do you just grant all those counties to your heir?

Thank you for your time!

 

[Allen418]

It’s not feudal that caused the succession problem. A culture has to go through a couple of eras of various forms of partition before reaching primogeniture, which then allows you to just give everything to your heir. Ultimately, the only way out of partition is to go feudal.

You should add Scandinavian elective succession to your duchy titles — that’ll help keep the counties together, which means you’ll have a nice solid domain to build from. There are other ways to handle succession but for a Scandinavian that’s the most simple.

Assuming you choose to elect a kid with some virtuous traits, your uncle will probably fall out of the lead. And won’t he die anyway before the next election? And save those hooks on vassals to make them vote with you.

 

[Androgladen]

It’s not feudal that caused the succession problem. A culture has to go through a couple of eras of various forms of partition before reaching primogeniture, which then allows you to just give everything to your heir. Ultimately, the only way out of partition is to go feudal.

You should add Scandinavian elective succession to your duchy titles — that’ll help keep the counties together, which means you’ll have a nice solid domain to build from. There are other ways to handle succession but for a Scandinavian that’s the most simple.

Assuming you choose to elect a kid with some virtuous traits, your uncle will probably fall out of the lead. And won’t he die anyway before the next election? And save those hooks on vassals to make them vote with you.

Thanks, obviously a lot to learn still!

Didn't know a child with better traits would help draw votes. Nor about the use of hooks. When does that become available, do I need some diplomacy traits? I haven't seen the option yet.
felt the Scandinavian elective was a wild card, but I guess I just need to work at it. Last succession botched so bad, that I currently have counties in Norway, Sweden, Denmark and England, so I will need to find a way to gather a full duchy of counties to pass on.

 

[Allen418]

On the election screen are two tabs. The first tab shows candidates; the second, voters. On the second tab is button titled “Force Vote,” which will allow you to use a hook on the voter to force him to vote for your candidate.

 

[Androgladen]

Another update;
I am currently in the progress of seizing most of the british isles, and I have a solid hold of my kingdom, after my latest succession war.
However, I am encountering two major problems.

The first being the Kingdom of Sweden, which was unfortunately never mine, and so I never destroyed the title. I am holding around 180 counties, and while there's plenty of infighting for the throne of Sweden, the Kingdom has grown to around 60 counties, making it a FAR too strong vassal to my liking. Is there anything I can do about this? In general, all the Duchy titles I have not destroyed has lead the holding vassal to conquest, sometimes within, sometimes without my realm. The added conquest outside of my realm, I can't complain about, but within is a bit of a problem, as it sometimes seems to be from vassals within my de jure titles, undermining the power of those titles, and I fear that Sweden has already become stronger than my secondary title of Kingdom of Norway or England, and meanwhile Sweden keeps taking counties in these areas. To boot, it doesn't even allow me to help said vassals from being conquered. Is there any way to fight this, or will I just have to wait for the kingdom of Sweden to usurp, and then revoke the title if I win that war?

Secondly, someone is murdering off my heirs at an alarming rate. I have had two different spymasters with around 24-25 intrigue set to disrupting schemes, and only on the 4th (!!!!) has it actually warned me of the scheme beforehand. I sought out potential heirs with high intrigues themselves, and had my spymaster search for secrets, but to no avail. Besides, my brother with 24 intrigue, who was an obvious contestant, suddenly died, also under mysterious circumstances. How can I better prevent murder schemes on my heirs? I have 11 children (8 left), but I would like my heir to be one with good traits

 

[Silens]

The first being the Kingdom of Swede

Well, Sweden always starts strong and usually keeps its momentum. If you have different faith, you can target their kingdom title once in a lifetime in a Holy War.

But you can also induce a slow death. Just look up what the king of Sweden has in his personal domain, pick off his strongest counties and conquer them. A weak king means chaos, infighting, bad vassal contracts (if they're feudal), even opportunities for you.

Click on the kingdom title of Sweden, there should be a button "Claimants". This will give you a list of all people who currently have a claim to that kingdom title. Now try to invite one claimant who is unlanded. Or abduct one of them. Once they're part of your court, you can actually use their claim as CB, and if you win, and you have a higher title tier (in your case if you're emperor), then this claimant gets the title and becomes your vassal.

Doesn't matter if someone usurps that title afterwards, they'd stay your vassal.

Secondly, someone is murdering off my heirs at an alarming rate.

In my experience it's coming from your heirs. They're killing off each other to make their inheritance bigger. You kind of have to live with that.

You can reduce the risks by giving your heirs anything but an Intrigue education, but you can't stop them from going at each other's throats.

 

[Androgladen]

Well, Sweden always starts strong and usually keeps its momentum. If you have different faith, you can target their kingdom title once in a lifetime in a Holy War.

But you can also induce a slow death. Just look up what the king of Sweden has in his personal domain, pick off his strongest counties and conquer them. A weak king means chaos, infighting, bad vassal contracts (if they're feudal), even opportunities for you.

Click on the kingdom title of Sweden, there should be a button "Claimants". This will give you a list of all people who currently have a claim to that kingdom title. Now try to invite one claimant who is unlanded. Or abduct one of them. Once they're part of your court, you can actually use their claim as CB, and if you win, and you have a higher title tier (in your case if you're emperor), then this claimant gets the title and becomes your vassal.

Doesn't matter if someone usurps that title afterwards, they'd stay your vassal.



In my experience it's coming from your heirs. They're killing off each other to make their inheritance bigger. You kind of have to live with that.

You can reduce the risks by giving your heirs anything but an Intrigue education, but you can't stop them from going at each other's throats.

Sweden is already my vassal, I am just constantly afraid of them joining usurpers or independance factions when I am in the middle of succession..

Well, that's a bit weird, because now it was a son who joined a holy order, who was just murdered. He couldn't even hold lands or inherit.. Something odd is going on..

 

[Allen418]

I’m a little confused at your realm set up from your post, but assuming Sweden is your vassal, the easiest way to stop vassals from conquering stuff from other vassals is crown authority 3.

As for murders, there’s event that’s a murder investigation where people near and dear to your ruler get murdered, but it’s usually only two, maybe three people. If you are raising callous, paranoid, deceitful, vengeful, lustful kids who focus on intrigue, you will have a court full of murderers. Otherwise, I’m not sure what’s up with that.

 

[Androgladen]

I’m a little confused at your realm set up from your post, but assuming Sweden is your vassal, the easiest way to stop vassals from conquering stuff from other vassals is crown authority 3.

As for murders, there’s event that’s a murder investigation where people near and dear to your ruler get murdered, but it’s usually only two, maybe three people. If you are raising callous, paranoid, deceitful, vengeful, lustful kids who focus on intrigue, you will have a court full of murderers. Otherwise, I’m not sure what’s up with that.

I am emperor of Norge, holding some Kingdom titles as well, however not Sweden, which is my biggest vassal.

Well, perhaps it's their traits. When does this investigation become available? I haven't seen anything pop up, even when I was actively trying to find secrets at suspicious heirs' holdings.

Also, thank you for the input

 

[Allen418]

I am emperor of Norge, holding some Kingdom titles as well, however not Sweden, which is my biggest vassal.

Well, perhaps it's their traits. When does this investigation become available? I haven't seen anything pop up, even when I was actively trying to find secrets at suspicious heirs' holdings.

Also, thank you for the input

For the event, you receive pop ups that allow you to chose how to investigate. So it sounds like it’s probably not the event.

Sometimes you just get bad luck with the murder RNG.

For the vassal, crown authority 3 will stop him from taking territory from your other vassals. If he controls counties outside of de jure Sweden, give him the kingdom title for the those counties outside of Sweden then murder him. Assuming partition, his realm will be split between the two titles. If he personally controls a lot of counties, give him duchies for the counties and if more than two, he will most likely give up the counties with the duchies. If he’s in a faction that’s smallish, force them to rebel and then you can revoke his title (after you win, of course).