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Wagonlitz

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I still don't get this list. It's said it's top first. I am top, and my time still hasn't came around. :unsure:
You made a time reservation which hasn't triggered yet. Had you made an ordinary reservation you would hav GMed long ago.
 

Falc

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I still don't get this list. It's said it's top first. I am top, and my time still hasn't came around. :unsure:

Well, you said yourself you wanted it to be april/may.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, you are at the top of the list so if you want to change your mind and GM now, that's fine.

But you can't just give permission for Ironhead to go ahead of you. There's more people than just you in the queue
 

Arkasas

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marty isn't the Werewolf Dictator Overlord Chief Egotist Drunkard-General President? Who knew?
 

Capt. Kiwi

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Dividing by 0 means a vertical line somewhere, right? I haven't taken calculus so this is the extent of my knowledge. ;)

No. Dividing by 0 means a breakdown in the laws of logic far more appropriate to the Cthulhu mythos than the really quite adorable and straight forward non-Euclidean geometries Lovecraft opted for.

What you're thinking of is that a vertical line cannot have its derivative evaluated in terms of y and x, because doing so implies a division by 0 which cannot be done. You can't even evaluate the limit, since the line doesn't exist outside of that breakdown point. It can, however, be evaluated in terms of r and θ (radius and angle). Or a rotated set of axes. Trying to change the co-ordinates of this back to y and x will break it, however.

x*0=0. But 0/0=/=x unless x=0. x/0=0 though, but it's physically impossible because how do you divide x into 0 groups? :)

0/0 does not equal anything because it's undefined, though if the top is a constant you can evaluate that the limit is zero. As the video linked to last page goes into however, that is only if you treat the top as a constant 0, and by looking at the full complex plane the limit of 0/0 can be whatever you want it to be :)

Yes the limit is plus or minus infinity and often the limit is what you look at. But it does happen in physics that you need to divide by 0 and then you get infinity. Just like dividing by infinity gives 0. Though luckily most of the time you need to divide by 0 you either expect to get infinity or the fraction is in a negative exponential function which then dies.I thought you refered to L'Hospital when you said that sometimes you can divide by 0.

L'Hospital actually also works for infinity/0 and 0/infinity. In that case you either make the numerator 1/0 or 1/infinity or the denominator 1/0 or 1/infinity. I.e. infinity/0 is also infinity/(1/0)=infinity/infinity. And then you can differentiate the two functions and take the limit again to see whether or not you this time get either 0, infinity or something inbetween instead of something undefined. And c/0 indeed only involves L'Hospital in the special cases of c=0 or c=infinity; otherwise it is just infinity.

And wiki indeed often is good for maths and physics.

I assume that is a number reservation?

I might not bother with the circumflex, but do try not to call L'Hopital a hospital :p

I'm not aware of any examples in physics of actually dividing by 0; instead there are usually work arounds so it can be dodged. See my changing the frame of reference to take the derivative of a vertical line. Was there any particular case you had in mind?

Dividing c/infinity is not at all like dividing c/0, as the former is implicitly a limit (infinity is not a number in the normal sense so it can't be a true equation), and it's a limit that converges to a single solution. When you treat c/0 as a limit it does not converge, except in the special case of c=0.

The reason I qualified my statement is that maths can do anything you want it to with the right axioms and definitions. In the trivial case "0" might be used as the label for what we normally think of as "1" for example. Less trivially, you can abandon the standard number system entirely and use things like projective geometries where there is only a single infinite point, causing c/0 to converge in the limit - but this is no longer a standard division.
 

LatinKaiser

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How will the mind behave when you are a 'full' mathematician? :p

You start posting in OT about whether or not it is possible to tell if God exists. :p
 

Bagricula

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I believe singularities involve dividing by quantities that are zero in the limit.
 

Capt. Kiwi

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You start posting in OT about whether or not it is possible to tell if God exists. :p

And other epistemological quandaries.

I believe singularities involve dividing by quantities that are zero in the limit.

Which is why they're so troubling, and have the laws of physics break down at the point/time of singularity where it is a division by zero.
 

Falc

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Quoting from Wikipedia:

In the 17th and 18th centuries, the name was commonly spelled "l'Hospital", and he himself spelled his name that way. However, French spellings have been altered: the silent 's' has been removed and replaced with the circumflex over the preceding vowel. The former spelling is still used in English where there is no circumflex.

The s spelling is also used in Dutch where it's even pronounced with a clear s.
 
Last edited:

Wagonlitz

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I'm not aware of any examples in physics of actually dividing by 0; instead there are usually work arounds so it can be dodged. See my changing the frame of reference to take the derivative of a vertical line. Was there any particular case you had in mind?
I don't have any particular case in mind other than when evaluating a partition function at 0 K---i.e. \beta = 1/(kT) = infinity. (This forum really needs LaTeX interpretation.) But I do remember evaluating at 0 several times. Or actually some of the times were at some value, which meant dividing by 0. E.g. evaluating the expression C+A*\exp{-1/(B-x)} in x = B which gives C; things like that are rather frequent in physics. But yes often a limit is taken instead of evaluating at some value which gives 0 in some denominator. And more often still the infinity is dogded by rewriting the terms so that you have the term which gives infinity in some limit cancel with another term, because the infinity giving limit is reached.
Dividing c/infinity is not at all like dividing c/0, as the former is implicitly a limit (infinity is not a number in the normal sense so it can't be a true equation), and it's a limit that converges to a single solution. When you treat c/0 as a limit it does not converge, except in the special case of c=0.

The reason I qualified my statement is that maths can do anything you want it to with the right axioms and definitions. In the trivial case "0" might be used as the label for what we normally think of as "1" for example. Less trivially, you can abandon the standard number system entirely and use things like projective geometries where there is only a single infinite point, causing c/0 to converge in the limit - but this is no longer a standard division.
What do you mean by using 0 to label 1? Some kind of numbering system?

I've seen both spellings. The one with the s in it has always bothered me, though.
In my calculus book it is L'Hospital. Though it is pronounced L'Hopital at my university, since that should be the correct French pronounciation.

Though the local pronounciation isn't always kept; for instance nobody pronounces Chandrasekhar in the correct Indian way when talking about the Chandrasekhar mass.

Which is why they're so troubling, and have the laws of physics break down at the point/time of singularity where it is a division by zero.
Yes a singularity is bad since it the laws of physics break down in it. But dividing by 0 doesn't necessarily give a singularity. If you do it in the exponent of a negative exponential function you just get 0. (Unless you are so cantankerous that you want to point out that there technically is a singularity in the exponent; in that case then a singularity doesn't necessarily break the laws of physics.)
 

EUROO7

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Guys, feel free to continue this discussion elsewhere.
 

Capt. Kiwi

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I don't have any particular case in mind other than when evaluating a partition function at 0 K---i.e. \beta = 1/(kT) = infinity. (This forum really needs LaTeX interpretation.) But I do remember evaluating at 0 several times. Or actually some of the times were at some value, which meant dividing by 0. E.g. evaluating the expression C+A*\exp{-1/(B-x)} in x = B which gives C; things like that are rather frequent in physics. But yes often a limit is taken instead of evaluating at some value which gives 0 in some denominator. And more often still the infinity is dogded by rewriting the terms so that you have the term which gives infinity in some limit cancel with another term, because the infinity giving limit is reached.

Ah. That's another kind of dodge in physics, where you ignore the branch of solutions which have no physical meaning. Negative degrees Kelvin is a nonsense, so you take only the limit from the positive. It's also commonly seen with square roots, taking only the positive solutions.

What do you mean by using 0 to label 1? Some kind of numbering system?

"0" is a character. It doesn't have to be the additive identity; you could just define it as being what we normally think of as one or two and then divide away. Instead whatever number, if any, you defined as the additive identity would not be capable of dividing another number. Hence a trivial way of getting around it.