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libbrit

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Having looked on the new victoria 2 website, is it just me who has noticed in the screen shots, that there is a glaring error on the map of the UK.

You have put Liverpool about 100 miles futher north than it actually would be-in reality it is directly along side Manchester, just on the west coast.

This is a major mistake for a supposedly historical game wouldnt you agree

look at the screen shot

http://www.victoria2.com/media/screens

then look at the reality

map-of-uk.gif
 

unmerged(105596)

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This is a major mistake for a supposedly historical game wouldnt you agree

No I wouldn't.


Besides, the map is the Clio map which has been made by the community for the community, and all the locations have surely been discussed over and over again for months if not years. It's a bit late to jump on the bandwagon now, isn't it?
 

safferli

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It has been said time and time again that CLIO (the basis of the map) have used the name of the largest city for the region. So the Liverpool is not the city, but the region where Liverpool is in. And that fits.
 

libbrit

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No I wouldn't.


Besides, the map is the Clio map which has been made by the community for the community, and all the locations have surely been discussed over and over again for months if not years. It's a bit late to jump on the bandwagon now, isn't it?

i apologise, i didnt realise the only valid opinion were those that have been expressed ad nauseum for months already-call me naive, but i thought a game that relied heavilly on maps would give some attention to approximate accuracy-Liverpool i practically in Scotland on that map
 

libbrit

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It has been said time and time again that CLIO (the basis of the map) have used the name of the largest city for the region. So the Liverpool is not the city, but the region where Liverpool is in. And that fits.

yes but the port for that region is, if you have any interest in this game being somewhat accurate, Liverpool-and the port is in a totally random place
 

telesien

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i apologise, i didnt realise the only valid opinion were those that have been expressed ad nauseum for months already-call me naive, but i thought a game that relied heavilly on maps would give some attention to approximate accuracy-Liverpool i practically in Scotland on that map

The only detailed enough screenshot to show Liverpool doesn't show much south it goes. But judging from the size of other regions, it will go south enough to contain the actual Liverpool town. So I don't see any problem here.
 

libbrit

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The only detailed enough screenshot to show Liverpool doesn't show much south it goes. But judging from the size of other regions, it will go south enough to contain the actual Liverpool town. So I don't see any problem here.

screen shot 15 on this link shows the full extent of the region boundary-te souhernmost part of the visible liverpool region-which is to say all of it-is where the port should be

http://www.victoria2.com/media/screens
 

telesien

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screen shot 15 on this link shows the full extent of the region boundary-te souhernmost part of the visible liverpool region-which is to say all of it-is where the port should be

http://www.victoria2.com/media/screens

Actually that is the picture that doesn't show the southern border. Judging from the position of port isn't anywhere near precise since it is just icon to represent presence of port in the region and not an exact place where town is supposed to be.
 

libbrit

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Actually that is the picture that doesn't show the southern border. Judging from the position of port isn't anywhere near precise since it is just icon to represent presence of port in the region and not an exact place where town is supposed to be.



well regardless of how far south it goes, you can see how far north it goes and the mistake in placing its port up where in real life, there was next to nothing. the port should be on the line connecting `liverpool` and `chester`, for accuracy sake
 

telesien

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well regardless of how far south it goes, you can see how far north it goes and the mistake in placing its port up where in real life, there was next to nothing. the port should be on the line connecting `liverpool` and `chester`, for accuracy sake
Sorry, but now you're just splitting hair. Wait until you'll see how the map really looks like and than complain. But be warned, now it's way too late to correct such small "mistakes" and I guess this time there won't be any new CLIO map project. A/OHGamer is already working on HoI3 map and B/this map comes from his previous project.
 

Earl Uhtred

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The position of the port within the province is largely lrrelevant unless it faces a different sea zone. (HoI2's 'Glasgow' facing east always pissed me off.)

EDIT: @ Telesien - OHG has not ruled out further development of the Clio map because the original was made under assumptions that held true in V1 but may not still (provinces rationed per US state for example to even out immigration).

EDIT EDIT: Or is it irrelevant? I'm not sure how the system works out distances.
 
Last edited:

Andrelvis

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That hardly qualifies as a "glaring" map error, even if the error is there.
 

safferli

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The positioning of the port icon will also most likely be determined by gameplay constraints.
 

Evans

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The Liverpool province is clearly Liverpool and north Lancashire, just like Bristol includes Bristol and Gloucestershire, and it's fine barring the actual placement of the port... It comes under tiny aesthetic error.
 
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Besides, the map is the Clio map which has been made by the community for the community, and all the locations have surely been discussed over and over again for months if not years. It's a bit late to jump on the bandwagon now, isn't it?

No entirely true. One shouldn't overestimated community projects. I happen to have followed the developpement of CLIO in the vicky forum. Even though there was a large amount of research-contributions, tts main problem was the small size of artists team (basically OHgamer and his pal), so they couldn't physically have enough time to pay attention to every detail of the entire world map. I myself noticed a few errors mainly in Europe, of which I reported one (Alsace Lorraine looks weired in CLIO). It did not get fixed...

And than, on the other side, given the ressources they had, in comparison with vanilla vicky, the result is quite awesome. America, Asia and Africa look much much better in CLIO than vanilla vicky. Not to mention the countless amount of small islands/provinces they added.

One of their objective for an example, was to redraw province borders as to allow todays country-borders, which they achieved pretty well.

As a conclusion, one shouldn't forget that this is EU3 engine, which projects a simple bitmap file onto a 3D planisphere; so it should be quite easy to mod. I intend to do so with western Europe (France, Germany).
 

OHgamer

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The province of Liverpool includes the city of Liverpool. That I know is correct. Liverpool is at the southern edge of Lancashire, and the map border for the province represents, to the degree possible given the limitations of the area represented by a pixel, the southern border of Lancashire. As such there is no "glaring error" in the province setup. Considering we are talking about a province border of maybe 3-4 pixels wide at most, adding even another row of pixels would put the southern boundary of the province well into Cheshire.

The port icon projected onto the map as shown in screenshots, however, is displaced to the north. Liverpool is not the only province to show this, many port icon locations on the map are not exactly where the city which the province represents is located.

There are, however, valid reasons for this to happen. Bear in mind that you need to be able to have enough space for the various incarnations of the port icon as well as clarity to tell if there are ships docked in the port or not. This means that placing the icon at the exact geographic location of the port on the map may actually make the map less useful for depiction of the activities at said port, since it may result in overcrowding in some areas of the map if the province density and the cities chosen to be the headquarters of the provinces are close together.

For those who feel that this is somehow a travesty to geography, as in EU3 and HoI3, it is a simple matter to tweaking the coordinates of the icons relative to the map in the relevant plain text file.

And as for the Alsace issue, what we are talking about is a small area in the northwest of Alsace that projects into Lorraine. I found that when the map was reduced to the size of HoI3 ingame map, the resulting border was very disjointed, IIRC even creating a small split in the Metz province, hence the decision to keep the provinces of Strasbourg and Colmar relatively clean without the projection to the northwest. As qwerkus notes, since this is the Clausewitz engine one can easily mod to adjust to a bit more "historically accurate" border in any part of the map, but the result will be to change maybe half a dozen pixels at most, and create a border that not only looks more jagged and angular between Metz and Strasbourg, but geopolitically in game will mean little in the effect that both provinces will be part of the German-occupied Alsace-Lorraine.
 

Aubrey

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yes but the port for that region is, if you have any interest in this game being somewhat accurate, Liverpool-and the port is in a totally random place

LOL, if this one is a gamebreaker for you go check out Stalingrad in HoI3 - your head will explode! ;)

As OHGamer (and others) mentioned, the icons representing the port are NOT detailed placements of the cities themselves. They are approximations that are subject to the requirement of clear display of game information. It always bugs me that Philadelphia doesn't have its own port (in HoI3), but the context of the game, with New York have a major port on the same sea zone, makes that understandable and not something to really worry about. Heck, it is far more of a problem that we can work up and expand ports in the game that could never be as large or effective in real life as we could make them in engine (i.e. most of the Pacific islands, Gibraltar, etc...).

I don't know if you are new(ish) to Paradox games/forums, but as a word of warning discussions and critiques of the maps will ALWAYS generate groans and comments, and even the occassional flame war. Not a single day goes by where someone doesn't complain about something on the maps...it has become so bad in some of the game areas that I doubt if the devs even look at map threads. My favorite was the complaint about the placement of a minor island off the coastal border of Finland and Sweden...
 

unmerged(182395)

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Dec 7, 2009
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i dont really thinks its abig deal, it represents the region, right?
also, looking at the screenshots: that is one big-ass bolivia!
 
May 29, 2007
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And as for the Alsace issue, what we are talking about is a small area in the northwest of Alsace that projects into Lorraine. I found that when the map was reduced to the size of HoI3 ingame map, the resulting border was very disjointed, IIRC even creating a small split in the Metz province, hence the decision to keep the provinces of Strasbourg and Colmar relatively clean without the projection to the northwest.

Hehe. I knew you had a look a this. But as I mentionned it in the CLIO thread, my issue was not so much about the area you're talking about, which as you say projects into Lorraine, than the Province of Colmar. If fact, while I find your solution to somehow render the province of Strassburg accurately quite elegant, CLIO Colmar (which I guess is Vanilla Mulhausen) is trimmed of roughly 1/4 of its RL surface, and Epinal is too big.
Again, these are only minor errors, which I will happily modd myself. Just thought that the meticulous modder that you are would be interested...