Giving light mechs something to do

[palmtree]

I loved the campaign but it always felt like a missed opportunity that my light mechs more or less sat unused in storage from the halfway point. There has to be reasons to use light mechs beyond manipulating initiative and I figure a little bit of creative mission design would go a long way.

As much fun as it is to just stomp around in the biggest mechs with no care for who you stomp on or why you're a merc on a mission and you can get a lot of mileage from the fact that your employer might actually care about collateral damage. Maybe they don't want an assault mech jumping on their sensitive lab buildings so they suggest very strongly that you bring nothing heavier than 55 tons to make sure you don't bring the roof down. It sets up a conflict between what's safest for you and what your employer wants and you're free to do as you wish. But if you do bring an Atlas then don't expect your employer to give you a bonus.

Another idea is to make a map with a chasm and a bridge. You have to insert on this side because enemy air defenses, the chasm is too wide to jump, and the bridge will only take 40 tons. You can send your heavier mechs to go the long way around but then you wouldn't be able to complete the optional objective in time.

The idea is to encourage people to bring lighter mechs and reward them for the extra risk it involves but also make sure that people who just want to bring an Assault lance to shoot everything can do that.

 

[prithupaul]

The game should allow multiple lances, but put a total limit to tonnage for drops. That way the player has the option to just take four assault mechs, or twelve light mechs, or anything in the between. It would add another layer of strategic decision making.

Just like in Total War battles, player has to consider both total size of army, and total cost.

 

[jaycenornin]

I’m ok with the limits while going through the campaign part of the game, but once you solve your little house squabble, you should have another goal to strive for.

To this end, I think having the ability to buy another and even buy larger dropships should be available (but not given) to players. There are easily a dozen or so dropships to choose from in the Battletech universe. Dropship size could not only increase drop tonnage, but also the number of lances deployable on any given mission.

Combine that with larger map sizes and you start really getting into proper Battletech scales of combat. You could even potentially integrate a system by which you drop off one dropship in a system, then jump to another system to drop the second. All that time staring at the dropship travel screen would then be broken up with one dropship arriving, picking up a contract, and then playing a mission or 2 before heading back to the jump point for pick up.

Just more layers for the tactical sim, that’s all.

The limits I'm referring to are artificial limits imposed by the developers and not by the story or by the lore of the universe. Later in the campaign you can have 3+ full lances of mechs & pilots and the only reason you can't drop them all at once is because the video game just won't let you. If maps were larger and if you could drop more than one lance of mechs, light mechs would suddenly find a long-term home in this game because then you would need a scout lance just to explore the map and find the bad guys.

I completely agree with you that we should be able to buy/sell dropships. Especially with an open-ended endgame, at some point I may decide to ditch the Argo in favor of an Overlord and that should be an option, IMO. But the technical aspects of implementing a mechanic to own and fly multiple dropships at once are a bit daunting, from a development perspective. But I do think it'd be fun, to build a merc unit to rival the Gray Death Legion or Eredani Light Horse

Larger maps and more mechs run into technical limitations, the game already has long load times and performance issues. Everything you listed is something that could be on the wishlist for Battletech 2 if and when they make a sequel. I'm more interested in what can be done with the existing game right now.

If the maps are the same size and you're still limited to a single lance of four mechs, what can be done to get players to pick lighter mechs?

As a developer I can see both sides of that argument. Honestly, I play the game in 4k on a 40" screen and neither the visual quality nor the AI seem to justify the long load times or slow performance that you're describing. I suspect that we're bumping up against limitations of the Unity engine there. But, again as a developer, I'm looking at this game thinking that there is a ton of room for optimizations to maps, sprites, models, shaders, etc to improve performance and load times without a noticeable sacrifice of visual quality.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

I think the devs just mentioned this as an upcoming patch thing. Technically the leapord is only supposed to be able to load 266 or 300 tons of mechs. So even if you had 4 Atluses (Atlus’... Atli...?), you could only drop 2 or 3 tops just because of what the leapord can and can’t do.

So if they patch that in, that’ll force more lance verity, if only by a mech or 2.

That would be horrible, unless they change the OpFor configurations as well.

As long as we can only drop 4 mechs and we're going up against multiples of that number all in heavy and assault mechs, I'm going to take every single ton of armor and firepower I can manage.

If they put that limit in without reworking the OpFor makeups, the first thing I'll do is look for a way to mod it out, and the second thing I'll do is look for a refund.

~~~~

As for being able to drop more mechs... MechCommander handled it.

 

[Lawler]

That would be horrible, unless they change the OpFor configurations as well.

As long as we can only drop 4 mechs and we're going up against multiples of that number all in heavy and assault mechs, I'm going to take every single ton of armor and firepower I can manage.

If they put that limit in without reworking the OpFor makeups, the first thing I'll do is look for a way to mod it out, and the second thing I'll do is look for a refund.

~~~~

As for being able to drop more mechs... MechCommander handled it.

Well they’d have to obviously make some changes. As it stands now, later in the campaign, the number of mechs over 55 tons dramatically scales up, which is not how I remember the lore. I’m ok with being outnumbered and outgunned on missions, but when it’s 2:1 odds and all those mechs are 60+ tons, it really becomes a meat grinder with you as the protein in question.

@jaycenornin: As far as limitations of the unity engine, I’m not sure about that. I certainly don’t have your credentials in software development, but if memory serves, there have been a lot of games done with unity and a few of them have done more with less. I think it’s an optimization factor at this point.

 

[Insert25c]

I would honestly be shocked if they made a BT2. There’s no reason to with the framework we have already. That’s not to say they couldn’t optimize the game more. They absolutely could. But the sims game is already open ended. Can your character even age and die? All they need to do is add content patches. Oh, it’s now the year 3049? Well since the invasion pack is out, your dudes get some distress calls while doing a job in Rasslehague space. Hanse Davion gets blowed the hell up? Guess it’s time for the FedCom civil war content patch.

They could literally add endless content as they push the timeline forward in just the framework we were given at launch.

Nerd Lore Point:
Melissa Steiner was the one blown up (3055) Hanse Davion died of heart attack (3052)

 

[Cheetah2003]

I'm at the stage of the game where heavy and assault mechs are common sights on the battle field. I still find extremely good value in dropping a Panther (35 tons) with my assault mechs. While not the fastest light mech, it does have enough tonnage to fit an LRM20 and plenty of ammo. Grab a +2 Stb. Damage LRM20 and you got yourself a fast mech whom can nearly knock down the enemy assault mechs, opening them up to called shots from the rest of my lance. (Mechanics: Turn 1, light mech hits the mech to be knocked down as the last action in the turn (reserving as needed.), then having initiative on next round and hopefully an unsteady mech from the first volley..yeah, very effective kill tactic.)

Also, scouting ahead, using sensor lock, you can severely damage (often outright kill) many mechs before they're even in visual range of your assault/heavies. For this reason, I always carry a lot of LRM's on my entire lance's loadouts. The best battle is the one where the enemy never has a chance. Besides, every shot my guys take is a repair bill, if I can kill them at range and take little to no damage, that's a win-win!

 

[AugurJMD]

Half the problem is how scaling ramps up as you drop with higher tonnage mechs and that lower difficulty missions availability no longer appear. I'd argue that your drop tonnage affects what mechs are encountered during the "random" missions to any greater degree than the skill level of your pilots. At least not in my experience, yet.

 

[Kutuzov1]

Just to point it out, a Leopard dropship can carry 4 mechs and 2 areaospace fighters. If the areospace fighter bays are emptied that space can contain 300 tons of light veichles or extra equipment (Technical readout 3057). From what I recall in some other product it was said that some unit modify the Leopard aerospace bays to mech bays, allowing it to drop 6 mechs. The limits is that the aerofighter bays doors are not optimized for rapid access, so the mechs contained there take more time disembarking or being evacuated. So, lore wise, it wouldn't be difficult to have 6 mechs on map, but the last two would be available after some time, and evacuating them would take more time.

An interesting choice: "you can bring 6 mechs but the last two will be available after x turns. If you withdraw you will have to abandon 2 mechs if all six are operative" .

 

[Kutuzov1]

Half the problem is how scaling ramps up as you drop with higher tonnage mechs and that lower difficulty missions availability no longer appear. I'd argue that your drop tonnage affects what mechs are encountered during the "random" missions to any greater degree than the skill level of your pilots. At least not in my experience, yet.

Both should affect what your enemies bring, but it should be clearly stated somewhere as I don't see empirical evidence of that. If I bring some pilot with low experience I still get all heavies/assault lances. Plus maybe some extra scout. Last battle was against 5 Victors, 1 Atlas, 1 Stalker, 1 Highlander and 1 Panther.

 

[Lawler]

Nerd Lore Point:
Melissa Steiner was the one blown up (3055) Hanse Davion died of heart attack (3052)

You know what, you’re right. I even read that book. I was thinking the merc commander that got blown up with her was Hanse for whatever reason. Jeeze it must be a decade or more since I read that.. senility, I tell you!

 

[JesterHell]

I think the devs just mentioned this as an upcoming patch thing. Technically the leapord is only supposed to be able to load 266 or 300 tons of mechs. So even if you had 4 Atluses (Atlus’... Atli...?), you could only drop 2 or 3 tops just because of what the leapord can and can’t do.

So if they patch that in, that’ll force more lance verity, if only by a mech or 2.

Really? My understanding is that in the dropship building rules that a single "mech-bay" component is always able to support a 100 ton mech and that the leopard has four mech bays and so it can carry 400t of mech.

Also, the leopard is supposed to house 2 aero space fighters but the players leopard does not so that is some "free" weight right there that can be used for it.

The game should allow multiple lances, but put a total limit to tonnage for drops. That way the player has the option to just take four assault mechs, or twelve light mechs, or anything in the between. It would add another layer of strategic decision making.

Just like in Total War battles, player has to consider both total size of army, and total cost.

No thanks, becasue it does not make sense.

All Dropship mech-bay components are all capable of supporting 100t mechs, so if you can drop 12 light then logically you can also drop 12 assaults and anything else would be an arbitrary limit imposed for gameplay "reasons" which as a simulationist I oppose.

 

[prithupaul]

No thanks, becasue it does not make sense.

All Dropship mech-bay components are all capable of supporting 100t mechs, so if you can drop 12 light then logically you can also drop 12 assaults and anything else would be an arbitrary limit imposed for gameplay "reasons" which as a simulationist I oppose.

You are not a simulationist. You are opposing "an arbitrary limit imposed for gameplay" in favor of an even older more nonsensical arbitrary limit imposed for gameplay.

 

[Lawler]

Really? My understanding is that in the dropship building rules that a single "mech-bay" component is always able to support a 100 ton mech and that the leopard has four mech bays and so it can carry 400t of mech.

Also, the leopard is supposed to house 2 aero space fighters but the players leopard does not so that is some "free" weight right there that can be used for it.



No thanks, becasue it does not make sense.

All Dropship mech-bay components are all capable of supporting 100t mechs, so if you can drop 12 light then logically you can also drop 12 assaults and anything else would be an arbitrary limit imposed for gameplay "reasons" which as a simulationist I oppose.

Yes, a single mech bay can hold a mech of up to 100 tons. But you’re confusing mech bay space with the lift capacity of the transport. The technical readouts don’t say a leapord class can’t carry an atlas, it just says that the maximum tonnage of mechs carried is limited to 266 tons or whatever. Something the devs assuredly knew, but chose to overlook in favor of convienience. Which I’m fine with. It’s much more believable for your 5 pilots and assorted crew to be in debt on a “small” shuttle than to start with this huge overlord class dropship and be like, “hope everyone really likes ramen ‘cuz that’s all we’re eating for the next 60 years.”

As far as “arbitrary reasons” go. It’s all arbitrary. Every shred of information we have about the game world is arbitrary. Someone sat down one night, got super hammered, and said, “Ima gonna make a mech transport!”. Then they sent it to print and now we have “canon”. That canon is what tells us the length, width, carry capacity and even that there was a common retrofit for the leapord that removes the aerospace cubicles to make room for more cargo space.

 

[prithupaul]

Yes, a single mech bay can hold a mech of up to 100 tons. But you’re confusing mech bay space with the lift capacity of the transport. The technical readouts don’t say a leapord class can’t carry an atlas, it just says that the maximum tonnage of mechs carried is limited to 266 tons or whatever. Something the devs assuredly knew, but chose to overlook in favor of convienience. Which I’m fine with. It’s much more believable for your 5 pilots and assorted crew to be in debt on a “small” shuttle than to start with this huge overlord class dropship and be like, “hope everyone really likes ramen ‘cuz that’s all we’re eating for the next 60 years.”

As far as “arbitrary reasons” go. It’s all arbitrary. Every shred of information we have about the game world is arbitrary. Someone sat down one night, got super hammered, and said, “Ima gonna make a mech transport!”. Then they sent it to print and now we have “canon”. That canon is what tells us the length, width, carry capacity and even that there was a common retrofit for the leapord that removes the aerospace cubicles to make room for more cargo space.

Indeed!

The original arbitrary rules were made to justify the conventions and gameplay of a 30 year old boardgame.

This is however a PC game, without the spatial / resource limitations, or the number crunching of a board game. It is a bloody shame if this infinitely more powerful platform is not taken advantage of in favor of archaic rules from a completely different platform.

 

[Insert25c]

Indeed!

The original arbitrary rules were made to justify the conventions and gameplay of a 30 year old boardgame.

This is however a PC game, without the spatial / resource limitations, or the number crunching of a board game. It is a bloody shame if this infinitely more powerful platform is not taken advantage of in favor of archaic rules from a completely different platform.

Except that this game is a simulation of (or at least love letter to) that 30 year old board game.

 

[Lawler]

Indeed!

The original arbitrary rules were made to justify the conventions and gameplay of a 30 year old boardgame.

This is however a PC game, without the spatial / resource limitations, or the number crunching of a board game. It is a bloody shame if this infinitely more powerful platform is not taken advantage of in favor of archaic rules from a completely different platform.

I agree.

The whole point of even bringing up the lift capacity is to justify he ideas of weight limits and dropship upgrades, with only really he former being relavent to the topic at hand.

In a nutshell, weight limits force you to be more economical with your tonnage resources such that, if you want to get 4 mechs in the field, you’re going to want to diversify your mech stable and not just get the 4 heaviest mechs you can find.

 

[Kutuzov1]

Yes, a single mech bay can hold a mech of up to 100 tons. But you’re confusing mech bay space with the lift capacity of the transport. The technical readouts don’t say a leapord class can’t carry an atlas, it just says that the maximum tonnage of mechs carried is limited to 266 tons or whatever. Something the devs assuredly knew, but chose to overlook in favor of convienience. Which I’m fine with. It’s much more believable for your 5 pilots and assorted crew to be in debt on a “small” shuttle than to start with this huge overlord class dropship and be like, “hope everyone really likes ramen ‘cuz that’s all we’re eating for the next 60 years.”

Where it say that? Tecnical readout 3025 give no limit at all, TR 3057 don't give a limit and it say that removing the fighter cradles you can stow an extra 300 tons of equipment in the fighter bays. seeing how we don't carry fighters we have at least an extra 150 tons of carrying capacity from that.

 

[CardinalMite]

How about limit Leopard drop tonnage vs planet gravity values? There is already gravity attributes for planets at least according to the starmap so why not use it to affect the tonnage you can bring on missions?

So if Leopard has bays for and can lift 400 tonnes of mechs in standard earth gravity, then on slightly higher grav worlds that may mean it can only lift 300 tonnes. On very high gravity worlds that may mean only 150-200 tonnes.. then youd have to choose between bringing 2 heavies or 4 mediums or 3 mediums and a light etc. etc.

 

[Lawler]

How about limit Leopard drop tonnage vs planet gravity values? There is already gravity attributes for planets at least according to the starmap so why not use it to affect the tonnage you can bring on missions?

So if Leopard has bays for and can lift 400 tonnes of mechs in standard earth gravity, then on slightly higher grav worlds that may mean it can only lift 300 tonnes. On very high gravity worlds that may mean only 150-200 tonnes.. then youd have to choose between bringing 2 heavies or 4 mediums or 3 mediums and a light etc. etc.

Because while those gravity tolerances may be valid for one location, they’re potentially disasterous for another. In theory anyway. And as far as I know, planetary gravity doesn’t affect anything currently. It had movement modifiers in classic BT, but I’ve not noticed any of that here. As is stands, just using the tonnage limit from the technical readouts would suffice.

It can be argued that on the high gravity worlds, enough extra cargo is left behind to make the drop safe or extra fuel could be on hand to make the extraction feasible. I honestly don’t think much thought went into, or needs to be put into it.

 

[Oimes]

Arbitrary weight limits are ok. If Tecnical readout don't give a limit to Leopard drop tonnage then our Leopard is "old and rusty". You need to make repairs ( perhaps engines or whatever ) or no more drop tonnage to you.
I love idea of upgrade drop ship to 6 mech, this combination with weight limit make light meach longer useful.

Some "light" specific and time limit mission would be also welcome. For example battle on "thin" ice or another unstable unstable where only X tons mech can fight.