Give Canada Some Attention (And other minors.)

[Mobsterman120]

I know it's been discussed that minors need to be done right, so they can be played enjoyable. But I've searched for Canada, and not a lot has been said about
Canada. Canada as many people know served an important role as a minor in world war 2. The Canadians led a successful campaign in Italy, there were a majority of Canadian soldiers serving in the liberation of the Netherlands. A user named Jorlaan made a post that better describes it than I can.


"By the end of WWII Canada had the third largest navy in the world, mostly consisting of destroyers/escorts, frigates, corvettes and a few cruisers, along with a myriad of support craft and armed merchantmen. We also had the fourth largest air force.
We manufactured some of the largest bombers of the war and a great many fighters. The main allied pilot training program was also located here.
A ton of other things were made here as well, from tanks and other armoured vehicles to small arms and stuff.

Just about 11% of the total national population was in uniform by the end as well, this is a HUGE proportion. 1.1 million out of a population of roughly 10. The only other countries that had higher levels were the majors who were in the middle of it, England, Germany and such. Even the USA only had about 4-5%. I had once found a page that showed a nice breakdown of population to armed forces % by country but I can't find it now. Anyone know of it?

Roughly 120,000 were in the navy, 200,000 in both the Canadian and British air forces and 350,000 or so active army troops. About another 400,000 men and women served in various support roles.

In game the BEST I can hope to muster is a few really crappy destroyers and some transports, a few really crappy planes and MAYBE 100,000 soldiers if I make em all militia. All that stretches leadership the the absolute breaking point and everything is out-dated."



I'm not asking for super Canada. I want nothing more than historical accuracy and the ability to have a fun meaningful play through as the nation. This extends to other minors that may have been represented incorrectly that I'm not aware of. So please give Canada some love.

 

[lemonsquid]

As stated, it seems as though the only thing to change for canada is their manpower/mobilization capacity. Other than that, Canada fought with American/British weapons/vehicles/ships/planes etc... I suppose the only reason Canada was made so weak in previous titles was to balance the sides.

 

[Mobsterman120]

As stated, it seems as though the only thing to change for canada is their manpower/mobilization capacity. Other than that, Canada fought with American/British weapons/vehicles/ships/planes etc... I suppose the only reason Canada was made so weak in previous titles was to balance the sides.

Thats a good step up and I appreciate it from the devs. But hopefully there will at least be a lot more flavor for Canada too? I'd find it interesting to make some money off of uranium trades with the states late war.

Also can you link me to where the devs state this about Canada? I'm interested to read it.

 

[Daelyn75]

I agree, Canada needs beefing up. My Grandfather was too young to serve, I think he was 9 when the war broke out in 1939, but his three older brothers served, and my great aunt's husband was a gunner on medium bombers within the Canadian Air Force. He had a few interesting stories to tell me about back in the day before he died. Suffice to say, my family has a history in this war, and I have always been fascinated by the Second World War more than any other time in history.

For me personally, it would be nice to see Canada perform more or less with historically accurate forces if the player chooses to do so, and if it's the AI then they shouldn't be a push over either.

 

[justin6477]

I'd be very interested in seeing a viable and interesting Canada game.

Actually, I think they'll be my first choice (with German as my 2nd game) due to their ability to enter the war early (when Britain declares war) and their relative isolation. I'm also very curious to see how mobilized I'll be able to make them in the new industrial system... planes and destroyers for days. No infantry whatsoever, just planes and ships to defend the motherland at a moment's notice.

 

[Jorlaan]

I should point out that we didn't just fight with British planes/ships/vehicles/weapons please do some research.

Canada has been manufacturing its own small arms since before the first world war. we made some 1.7 million small arms and 43,000 heavy guns.

During WW2 Canada produced most of its own combat naval force, destroyers, frigates, corvettes and some smaller ships, as well as some support ships and landing craft. Some 9,000 ships were build for the war. Larger ships like cruisers and the aircraft carriers we got after the war were bought from the British

Roughly 16,000 aircraft total manufactured of various types, fighters, bombers and support.

Around 50,000 tanks and armored gun carriers were manufactured.

As well as a whole whack of other manufactured goods needed for both the war and of course civilian material. We pushed our industry hard, as hard as a nation with only 10 million could. All those numbers are just wartime production. Even with the 3 years lead up, foreknowledge of the war and the ability to start pumping out war material on day 1, in HoI 3 I can't come even close to this.

 

[Zupanicarr]

I should point out that we didn't just fight with British planes/ships/vehicles/weapons please do some research.

Canada has been manufacturing its own small arms since before the first world war. we made some 1.7 million small arms and 43,000 heavy guns.

During WW2 Canada produced most of its own combat naval force, destroyers, frigates, corvettes and some smaller ships, as well as some support ships and landing craft. Some 9,000 ships were build for the war. Larger ships like cruisers and the aircraft carriers we got after the war were bought from the British

Roughly 16,000 aircraft total manufactured of various types, fighters, bombers and support.

Around 50,000 tanks and armored gun carriers were manufactured.

As well as a whole whack of other manufactured goods needed for both the war and of course civilian material. We pushed our industry hard, as hard as a nation with only 10 million could. All those numbers are just wartime production. Even with the 3 years lead up, foreknowledge of the war and the ability to start pumping out war material on day 1, in HoI 3 I can't come even close to this.

I think what he means is that we used British models(weapons, equipment, planes etc) which is true.

 

[scroggin]

I agree with the original poster Canada should be a lot stronger In game. But there also needs to be better co-operation between allies in order to make them an effective factor in HOI4.

 

[Sky_WKing]

In one of the previous threads I saw that Canada built 50,000 tanks/SPGs during the war, which is also suggested by Jorlaan. This number doesn't look right since that's more than the entire British Empire combined (which is self-contradictory), about half of AFV production of USA/USSR, and only some 20% less than Germany. I highly doubt Canada had that strong an industry. However Canada did produce an impressive amount of small arms, artillery, and soft-skinned vehicle.

 

[safe-keeper]

Minors in general were way too weak in HOI3, both in terms of VP placement (Norway had only one VP for some reason), military force, and probably also industrial strength. Already started a thread on this some time back. I think it would be far more interesting if they were at their historical strength, and it was a bit more of a challenge to invade other countries.

 

[lemonsquid]

What did Canada manufacture that wasnt a US/British design? Im just curious really

 

[SFSLovenought]

I wonder what the Canadian ND is?

 

[keynes2.0]

What did Canada manufacture that wasnt a US/British design? Im just curious really

Their most significant design was probably the Sexton which was based on the M4 chasis but was a Canadian design and was AFAIK the only significant indirect fire artillery AFV of WWII.

Canada's outsized contribution wouldn't be in AFVs but in trucks. Although not as flashy as tanks the hundreds of thousands of trucks produced in Canada were vital to the success of Allied forces in the invasion of France. I believe that Canada produced more trucks-per capita then anyone else by quite a margin although I'm having trouble finding hard numbers.

 

[Opanashc]

I can say, that some statistics are WAY off. For example, USA had ~16 million people serving at one point of another, with a population of ~132 million - tad more then Canadians. Romania, Hungary, Finland - they were definitely not majors, but mobilized a lot more men than Canada (650,000 out of 3,500,000 in Finland served simultaneously).

 

[Opanashc]

Minors in general were way too weak in HOI3, both in terms of VP placement (Norway had only one VP for some reason)

That was done due to game mechanics. They had a VP up north too, but Germany would send half the Wehrmacht into the mountains, and starve them to death.

 

[keynes2.0]

I can say, that some statistics are WAY off. For example, USA had ~16 million people serving at one point of another, with a population of ~132 million - tad more then Canadians. Romania, Hungary, Finland - they were definitely not majors, but mobilized a lot more men than Canada (650,000 out of 3,500,000 in Finland served simultaneously).

Those countries had large numbers of people serving over the course of the entire war but Canada had 11% of it's population under arms at the same time. Finland in particular released a lot of draftees from it's armed service back into the civilian economy in between the Winter War and the continuation war, otherwise they would have faced famine. The US always kept it's total military manpower fairly limited because it wanted to maintain a large war industry and food workforce so many draftees were inducted with a short term of enlistment so they could be returned to the agricultural and industrial pool.

 

[208]

What did Canada manufacture that wasnt a US/British design? Im just curious really

Canada also manufactured their own tank designs based on the M3 and M4 (the Ram and Grizzly, respectively) , but for logistical & industrial reasons they ended up using Shermans in their own units and ceased construction of these tanks (although the chassis were still produced as the basis of the successful Sexton series of SPGs, which Keynes 2.0 mentioned.)

 

[Kagernaut]

I would like to see the proof that Canada built 50,000 tanks. I know you mentioned AFVs there, and I would be willing to believe that 49.99K trucks and AFVs were produced, but my research not too long ago conlucded that Canada built only *one* of its own tanks (that is just a single tank) of a model that was based off the Sherman. The Grizzly was the tank as I recall, an upgunned Sherman I believe. Besides that tank, a very small amount of licensed shermans, and a few british tanks built on license (Crusader was the model? Is that right?), most tanks for the Canadian army were lend lease Shermans. It wasn't that Canada couldn't design and produce its own tanks, its just that they didn't need to with so many American shermans available.

But yes in general, I think Canada needs some serious love to show that it did produce ALOT of materiel for the war. IIRC, most of the trucks used by the British were Canadian produced. Also, the statistic about the Canadian navy is true, they had lots of ships, but most of them quite small. Not sure how to represent that in game except with more destroyers, which in HOI3 I felt they should have had more and better practical for it just ot encourage players and AI to build more destroyers.

 

[DC123456789]

Here's a source.

 

[keynes2.0]

I believe that number is a typo and should be more then 5000, not more then 50,000. The page says that Angus Shops and Montreal Locomotive Company produced more then 5000 and those are, AFAIK the only companies that made Canadian tanks. Or maybe it's talking about tanks that Canada contributed to? Given that American tanks were built by companies with operations in Canada in factories close to the border I would say it's not unreasonable to think that Canadian parts played some role in the construction of 50k tanks.