Give back westernisation! And about institutes

[DanubianCossak]

If I do recall they based their military off of Prussia's, as Peter the Great greatly (so punny) admired the Prussian army. I believe they adopted a lot of their drills, tactics, and organizational structure. However, I may be wrong

Thats about what i know as well (movies and what not), he wanted an army like that, and he (and people who came after him) went through a lot of trouble to get like the uniforms and stuff to be *like that*, but i have no idea whether they actually managed to make an army like that. Or was it pretty much the same thing, just better dressed XD

 

[Dakka]

Thats about what i know as well (movies and what not), he wanted an army like that, and he (and people who came after him) went through a lot of trouble to get like the uniforms and stuff to be *like that*, but i have no idea whether they actually managed to make an army like that. Or was it pretty much the same thing, just better dressed XD

I suppose it really depends on what you consider "Western" militarily. Game wise, Prussia's troops are just as Western as France's, but during the early parts of the Napoleonic Wars, the Prussian army was very outdated in comparison to the Napoleonic troops, though I suppose that would be alluded to they fell behind in military tech. Each nation had its own strengths and weaknesses in the ways they used troops, but because of how the game is abstracted it is hard to say whether or not it should be represented by some nations just having better troops or represented by just being behind in technology. In the end, this whole conversation is basically a "who would win, a knight or a samurai?". There's no way to really know just because they were simply just different from one another.

 

[DanubianCossak]

I suppose it really depends on what you consider "Western" militarily. Game wise, Prussia's troops are just as Western as France's, but during the early parts of the Napoleonic Wars, the Prussian army was very outdated in comparison to the Napoleonic troops, though I suppose that would be alluded to they fell behind in military tech. Each nation had its own strengths and weaknesses in the ways they used troops, but because of how the game is abstracted it is hard to say whether or not it should be represented by some nations just having better troops or represented by just being behind in technology. In the end, this whole conversation is basically a "who would win, a knight or a samurai?". There's no way to really know just because they were simply just different from one another.

I dont know whether this is correct, but what i was told about Russians is that they always lagged behind the West with military technology, namely with weapons (guns and cannons) technology. So where the contemporary Western armies had much better muskets/rifles/whatever, that could shoot faster and be deadly at longer range, Russians had issues of matching that. So even though they wore same kind of fancy uniforms, they didnt use the same tactics (as they would lose). So whereas the Westerners would shoot and keep reloading and shooting, Ruskies would fire a volley or two, drop their muskets, pick up bardiches from the ground and charge the enemy formation into a melee fight (one that they could win).

 

[ywxiao]

But, with the same mentality, if a player wants to use a nation in asia as a nation akin to western empires, with the same ideology as western imperialism, why is he stopped from shedding the asian skin and fully embrace western technology?

Obviously the Emperor/Shogun stops you.
It's a fact that Kangxi emperor in the later years of his rule actively tried to supress technological development, because there are no external threats, only internal, same with Japan.

Kangxi did arm his troops with fire arms early on, but when it became clear that neither the Mongol or the Manchu banners knew how to use them properly, he tried to stop it, though he did it very cleverly.

For example, his advisor Ferdi once boasted about the quality of cannons made in the homeland, one of the Han mechanics easily replicated what he described. He held a personal grudge against the man and Kangxi used this to stop further cannon development.

Later on another man brought copies of MIC Kalthoff repeaters for his consideration, he secretly disposed of them. Kalthoff were amazing weapons at the time, but because of the production difficulty it wasn't practical in Europe, however mass producing them was not a problem in China. Again because his Manchu/Mongol banners would not be able to use the rifles properly he stopped it.

 

[wingzero890]

So why not add Polish space program then? You cant have it both ways. There have to be some limits. Otherwise you can argue for literally anything to be added. Im yet to see a single good argument for military westernization, other than people wanting the best units.

You're arguing to absurdity there. Pretty much everything is already possible in the hand of players, especially since the tech penalties were moved to institutions and away from tech groups. Giving players agency to switch unit types is not going to break the game. This is the game where you can conquer the world as Ryukyu.

And also, steppe nomads switch unit types when they reform (last I checked) to either muslim, chinese or eastern (rare). Forming Mughals gives you the option to switch unit types a third time. So precedent exists in this game for switching unit types when paying for reforms.

 

[pikaemperor]

In the late game, yes. But it's not an overwhelming advantage. And, as others have said, Westernising has not changed your unit type for a long time. A Westernised Ottomans still used Anatolian units. The only thing that tech group still affects is the technology adjacency bonus (in which regard, the Ottomans have been seriously nerfed, their tech group is now one of the worst, since they are the only ones in it and, thus, get no bonuses).

One pip difference is quite big as it's equivalent to +1 to the rolls during that action(offensive pip or defensive pip). You don't say that attacking on mountains is not a big difference, even the AI is aware attacking mountains is stupid. Adding a permanent penalty for a nation because of starting position, on what basis reforming their army would be impossible?

 

[DanubianCossak]

You're arguing to absurdity there. Pretty much everything is already possible in the hand of players, especially since the tech penalties were moved to institutions and away from tech groups. Giving players agency to switch unit types is not going to break the game. This is the game where you can conquer the world as Ryukyu.

And also, steppe nomads switch unit types when they reform (last I checked) to either muslim, chinese or eastern (rare). Forming Mughals gives you the option to switch unit types a third time. So precedent exists in this game for switching unit types when paying for reforms.

Nevertheless there are some lines that should not be crossed without a good reason.

Precedents do exist - mostly when you stop being a nomad society and turn into a settled one. It is quite thematically appropriate too. And has nothing to do with getting European like units simply because they are the best. And note that at least 75% of my games are as Russia.

Edit: with that said, i love the idea of military reform. As in something that would allow you to catch up with others if you fall behind in tech or something?

One pip difference is quite big as it's equivalent to +1 to the rolls during that action(offensive pip or defensive pip). You don't say that attacking on mountains is not a big difference, even the AI is aware attacking mountains is stupid. Adding a permanent penalty for a nation because of starting position, on what basis reforming their army would be impossible?

I dont think +1 pip has the same effect as +1 dice roll from terrain penalties. Are you sure about that? A unit with 20 pips vs a unit with 22 pips should have minimal difference.

 

[mergele]

One pip difference is quite big as it's equivalent to +1 to the rolls during that action(offensive pip or defensive pip). You don't say that attacking on mountains is not a big difference, even the AI is aware attacking mountains is stupid. Adding a permanent penalty for a nation because of starting position, on what basis reforming their army would be impossible?

Terrain modifiers are way worse than pips of units. -1 terrain modifiers translates to a 6 pip difference since it influences all stats. So 2 pip difference would be a -0.3 terrain modifier.

 

[Dakka]

I dont know whether this is correct, but what i was told about Russians is that they always lagged behind the West with military technology, namely with weapons (guns and cannons) technology. So where the contemporary Western armies had much better muskets/rifles/whatever, that could shoot faster and be deadly at longer range, Russians had issues of matching that. So even though they wore same kind of fancy uniforms, they didnt use the same tactics (as they would lose). So whereas the Westerners would shoot and keep reloading and shooting, Ruskies would fire a volley or two, drop their muskets, pick up bardiches from the ground and charge the enemy formation into a melee fight (one that they could win).

It really depends on WHEN we are talking. The Russian military was rather modern in the 1700s and 1800s. In fact, the Russians had some very nice artillery pieces during this time, but I'm not sure about the rest of the EU4 period as that lies out of the timeframe that I study :S

 

[DanubianCossak]

It really depends on WHEN we are talking. The Russian military was rather modern in the 1700s and 1800s. In fact, the Russians had some very nice artillery pieces during this time, but I'm not sure about the rest of the EU4 period as that lies out of the timeframe that I study :S

Should be around Crimean War, so mid 1800s? Probably not true, i guess.

 

[pikaemperor]

Terrain modifiers are way worse than pips of units. -1 terrain modifiers translates to a 6 pip difference since it influences all stats. So 2 pip difference would be a -0.3 terrain modifier.

But how many less pips late game do you think non western have?

 

[ywxiao]

Terrain modifiers are way worse than pips of units. -1 terrain modifiers translates to a 6 pip difference since it influences all stats. So 2 pip difference would be a -0.3 terrain modifier.

Not true, terrain doesn't affect your defensive pip, and morale is separate.

2 pip is basically -1 terrain, though late game cannons will make the difference smaller on an army scale.

 

[Lady Lacroix]

So where do we draw the line?

How about Polish space program?

despite it's existing outside of the timeframe, the meji restoration is the model for 'westernization'. The entire event was a matter of reinventing the japanese cultural and social structures around western lines. It permeated every facet of their society and was more than peter's passing fad.

 

[FireKahuna]

Whats really annoying is some old events/disasters linked to the Western tech group are now lost to the east, such as the 'Revolution'. You can't westernize and get that.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I dont know whether this is correct, but what i was told about Russians is that they always lagged behind the West with military technology, namely with weapons (guns and cannons) technology. So where the contemporary Western armies had much better muskets/rifles/whatever, that could shoot faster and be deadly at longer range, Russians had issues of matching that. So even though they wore same kind of fancy uniforms, they didnt use the same tactics (as they would lose). So whereas the Westerners would shoot and keep reloading and shooting, Ruskies would fire a volley or two, drop their muskets, pick up bardiches from the ground and charge the enemy formation into a melee fight (one that they could win).

Ehh, bardiches? The "contemporary Western armies" were still fighting in tercios during the 30 Years War, right around the time Russia embarked on the reforms that would eventually result in the Streltsy (who fought in a similar manner) getting disbanded by Peter. Russian military started falling behind significantly after the Napoleonic Wars, culminating in the Crimean defeat.

 

[Makcum1453]

Can you explain in what way?

Did they adopt new weapons or kept using their own?

Did they change the way they raised, trained or used armies?

Who did they copy?

Yet in XVII century was introdused new model infantry in Russia that based on western armies

 

[Orkonkel]

Sweden-Russian conflicts were quite different from pre- and -post-Russian modernisation. Is modernisation the same as westernisation? Well, Russia was behind the western Great Powers in a lot of ways and Peter and started catching up.

Anyway. Aside from pips, army type also determines cavalry configuration of your army. In my opinion, the higher your cavalry configuration is, the lower your cavalry upkeep should be. What's the point of 50÷ or higher cavalry armies if you can't even afford it? Also, cavalry should have a penetrate bonus where some of its damage carries over to the second rank of troops.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, the Ottomans' location in the world makes them somewhat better off than nations further to the East. Nevertheless, the tech group itself is awful. They would be literally better off in any other tech group, at least in that regard (I'm not sure how the units really compare).

Ottoman units are near the very best for the first ~1/3 to 1/2 the game, which is the half that usually matters.

 

[chrnno]

But how many less pips late game do you think non western have?

Well infantry only on level 26(year 1745) the difference is 20 to 19 for most with High American having 21, Chinese and Eastern having 20. The gap widens a bit on level 28(1775) with Western upgrading to 21 but no upgrades to anyone else leaving them matched with High American, 1 ahead of Chinese and Eastern and two ahead of everyone else. At level 30(1805) Western and High American go up to 22, Eastern to 21 everyone else up to 20 if they weren't there already. So two at the highest over some groups.

It is worthy pointing out that when there is less pips and thus they are worthy more Western mostly has at least one less than everyone else up to level 15(1596). Also High American between levels 5(1466) and 15(1596) are at least 2 and up to 6 above the others.

Honestly from my point of view Western is the worst unit group since by the time it stops being the weakest it normally doesn't matter anymore.

 

[ywxiao]

It is worthy pointing out that when there is less pips and thus they are worthy more Western mostly has at least one less than everyone else up to level 15(1596).

Damage calculation uses simple subtraction for pips, 4 - 3 = 1 and 2 - 1 = 1 as well.