Give back westernisation! And about institutes

[Roparex]

Who has switched to western units in EU4 time frame?

Who westernised during the timeframe? Just because it didn't happen that doesn't mean it was impossible.

 

[grommile]

Who westernised during the timeframe?

A great deal of the conceptual/flavour space around Westernization seemed to be aimed at evoking Peter the Great.

 

[Roparex]

A great deal of the conceptual/flavour space around Westernization seemed to be aimed at evoking Peter the Great.

Sorry, forgot that russia 'needed' to westernise
However, that still was only temporary, because his heirs didn't continue his western-based ideas.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Who westernised during the timeframe? Just because it didn't happen that doesn't mean it was impossible.

So where do we draw the line?

How about Polish space program?

 

[Roparex]

Stuff that could've happened in this timeline, not 150 years afterwards .
Like korea can colonise, and that is technically impossible for the people of that time. (i mean their mentality)
But, with the same mentality, if a player wants to use a nation in asia as a nation akin to western empires, with the same ideology as western imperialism, why is he stopped from shedding the asian skin and fully embrace western technology?

 

[DanubianCossak]

Stuff that could've happened in this timeline, not 150 years afterwards .

How do you define what could and what couldnt have happened? Who is the arbiter of that?

But, with the same mentality, if a player wants to use a nation in asia as a nation akin to western empires, with the same ideology as western imperialism, why is he stopped from shedding the asian skin and fully embrace western technology?

If they embrace institutions, they actually can play akin to western empires - in other words be the technology leader of the world and drive forward all kinds of innovation.

What you cant do is make Koreans into British or French, because Koreans are not British or French. IDK, that makes sense to me.

Edit: what i would however do is make sure that no tech group has clearly and obviously too much inferior units (anything more than a couple of pips of difference at same tech level).

 

[Roparex]

What you cant do is make Koreans into British or French, because Koreans are not British or French.

Well then how are the italians the same as the british, french, germans, scandinavians, etc

 

[DanubianCossak]

Well then how are the italians the same as the british, french, germans, scandinavians, etc

Because Italians, unlike Koreans, belong to European and Christian historical meta narrative? They are in the same region and have every possible kind of communication with them (cultural, religious, commercial etc) unlike Koreans.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I think EU confuses causes and effect somewhat. "Colonialism" isn't an idea, it's a natural consequence of Europeans accidentally stumbling on two rich empires in the middle of internal political crisis and taking advantage of that, with disease opening the way to resettle all sorts of malcontents from Europe (from conquistadors to non-conformists) there. If some Arab navigator sailed on a Chinese junk east to find a shorter way to Europe, and stumbled on the Americas, it's not implausible the same would've happened, but with China replacing Spain, and Buddhists replacing Pilgrims.

That's not to say it should be a free for all where a tribal state starts mass-manufacturing printing presses the moment they see one.

 

[DanubianCossak]

I think EU confuses causes and effect somewhat. "Colonialism" isn't an idea, it's a natural consequence of Europeans accidentally stumbling on two rich empires in the middle of internal political crisis and taking advantage of that, with disease opening the way to resettle all sorts of malconents from Europe (from conquistadors to non-conformists) there. If some Arab navigator sailed on a Chinese junk east to find a shorter way to Europe, and stumbled on the Americas, it's not implausible the same would've happened, but with China replacing Spain, and Buddhists replacing Pilgrims.

That's not to say it should be a free for all where a tribal state starts mass-manufacturing printing presses the moment they see one.

Isnt that exactly modeled with the current system? IIRC colonialism can be started by anyone who discovers the New World, im pretty sure i did it as Mali.

can_start = {
        is_year = 1500
        OR = {
            continent = europe
            continent = asia
            continent = africa
        }
        has_port = yes
        is_island = no
        is_in_capital_area = yes
        owner = {
            has_idea = quest_for_the_new_world
            OR = {
                north_america = { has_discovered = PREV }
                south_america = { has_discovered = PREV }
                new_world = { has_discovered = PREV }
            }
        }

    }

 

[Roparex]

Because Italians, unlike Koreans, belong to European and Christian historical meta narrative? They are in the same region and have every possible kind of communication with them (cultural, religious, commercial etc) unlike Koreans.

If i become a catholic Japan, with all the institutions as the west, and allied with various western countries, it's impossible to not have samurais, right? Like 'borrowing' the idea of napoleonic infantry. Impossible.

 

[DanubianCossak]

If i become a catholic Japan, with all the institutions as the west, and allied with various western countries, it's impossible to not have samurais, right? Like 'borrowing' the idea of napoleonic infantry. Impossible.

As you advance in technology you should unlock more advanced units.

If you are able to keep up to date with technologies, you will effectively be on same level as west, and you will have "modern" units of your group.

Im not sure in Japan's case, but in general, unit groups should have roughly equal units of same level (so Japanese level 20 units - or whatever - should be Japanese flavor units - but with same combat potential as all other level 20 units).

^ if they dont, now thats a valid complaint, as i cant see a reason why that should be so.

 

[Roparex]

It is, it is commonly known late western units are the best in the game. I don't think that ever changed.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Isnt that exactly modeled with the current system? IIRC colonialism can be started by anyone who discovers the New World, im pretty sure i did it as Mali.

can_start = {
        is_year = 1500
        OR = {
            continent = europe
            continent = asia
            continent = africa
        }
        has_port = yes
        is_island = no
        is_in_capital_area = yes
        owner = {
            has_idea = quest_for_the_new_world
            OR = {
                north_america = { has_discovered = PREV }
                south_america = { has_discovered = PREV }
                new_world = { has_discovered = PREV }
            }
        }

    }

Yes, but it can spread in all sorts of weird directions afterwards, as if it literally were a coherent idea one could put on paper and embrace as a component of one's worldview, or a thing one could manufacture, instead of an amorphous range of social and political events we termed, ex post, to be colonialism. That makes little sense for inland West Africa, I think.

EDIT: What would be nice are cultural adaptations of institutions, so that, say, China could get it if they discovered Western Africa and knocked over Songhai. They almost went in that direction with national ideas, I think, but it's all sort of half-baked and spread out over all the features and DLC's in the game. The overall design is not very coherent.

 

[DanubianCossak]

It is, it is commonly known late western units are the best in the game. I don't think that ever changed.

Maybe they wont change Western Units, but if you make a list of all tech groups that are clearly inferior, im pretty sure they *could* change those. Make them equal pip for pip? Probably not. But roughly there? Quite possibly imo.

Yes, but it can spread in all sorts of weird directions afterwards, as if it literally were a coherent idea one could put on paper and embrace as a component of one's worldview, or a thing one could manufacture, instead of an amorphous range of social and political events we termed, ex post, to be colonialism. That makes little sense for inland West Africa, I think.

IMO the overall system of institutions work. Does every single institutions they picked make perfect sense? Well. IDK. I think of them as loose or abstracted concepts. In any case i have no idea what i would replace colonialism with.

 

[wingzero890]

Who has switched to western units in EU4 time frame?

At this point in the game's development I don't think the historical argument is very strong, as it has been said by devs that historical accuracy does not necessarily make for good gameplay. Besides, you can spawn institutions in Asia now and colonize the new world as Korea/Japan/etc, something that never happened.

As you advance in technology you should unlock more advanced units.

If you are able to keep up to date with technologies, you will effectively be on same level as west, and you will have "modern" units of your group.

Im not sure in Japan's case, but in general, unit groups should have roughly equal units of same level (so Japanese level 20 units - or whatever - should be Japanese flavor units - but with same combat potential as all other level 20 units).

^ if they dont, now thats a valid complaint, as i cant see a reason why that should be so.

Western units are 2-3 pips above units from other tech groups after tech 20. Western units are also afforded more flexibility with where to place pips, unlike the ROTW tech groups which many time only have one unit upgrade to pick from. In fact, the old westernization did not change your unit types either, so it was ridiculous to the extreme since when we talk about 'westernizing' we think of Japan adopting the napoleonic model for its army.

If we're going to talk about how to implement a 'westernize our military' type decision, a period of extreme military weakness coupled with an extremely hefty ducat cost, as well as mil points, seems appropriate. Border with a western nation required of course.

 

[DanubianCossak]

At this point in the game's development I don't think the historical argument is very strong, as it has been said by devs that historical accuracy does not necessarily make for good gameplay. Besides, you can spawn institutions in Asia now and colonize the new world as Korea/Japan/etc, something that never happened.

So why not add Polish space program then? You cant have it both ways. There have to be some limits. Otherwise you can argue for literally anything to be added. Im yet to see a single good argument for military westernization, other than people wanting the best units.

Western units are 2-3 pips above units from other tech groups after tech 20. Western units are also afforded more flexibility with where to place pips, unlike the ROTW tech groups which many time only have one unit upgrade to pick from. In fact, the old westernization did not change your unit types either, so it was ridiculous to the extreme since when we talk about 'westernizing' we think of Japan adopting the napoleonic model for its army.

I just checked the code and unit values, and you are partially incorrect, and partially correct.

The units listed in Japan country file match Western units pip for pip, i checked the last unit, whose code name is reformed_asian_musketeer, and it has 20 pips, while prussian_frederickian, another level 20 unit, also has 20 pips. So for those levels where Japan gets actual unit upgrades, there is no 2-3 pips difference.

The part where you are correct, and they are indeed weaker, is that after level 26 Japan doesnt seem to get any more units. While for example there is a level 30 nomad! infantry code name reformed_steppe_rifles (that has same amount of pips as level 26 Japanese infantry btw, 20).

So the obvious solution here is to give all tech groups finisher unit models, and make them roughly equal to western ones, with not more than 10% pips difference, or something.

This actually deserves a thread of its own, and one of you ROTW people should make one.

Edit: i just checked the very last infantry upgrade Western tech gets, at level 30, they all get 22 pips. So worst case scenario, the max difference between West and Japan is 2 pips in Infantry, which is exactly 10% difference. Note i only checked infantry.

 

[Makcum1453]

Who has switched to western units in EU4 time frame?

Russia

 

[DanubianCossak]

Russia

Can you explain in what way?

Did they adopt new weapons or kept using their own?

Did they change the way they raised, trained or used armies?

Who did they copy?

 

[Dakka]

Can you explain in what way?

Did they adopt new weapons or kept using their own?

Did they change the way they raised, trained or used armies?

Who did they copy?

If I do recall they based their military off of Prussia's, as Peter the Great greatly (so punny) admired the Prussian army. I believe they adopted a lot of their drills, tactics, and organizational structure. However, I may be wrong