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Orinsul

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Becasuse if you run the Kingdom of the Two Scillies well you should not be screwed over by some arbitatary historical event.

But you should get an historic event around the time if the situation is similar that gives you the option of getting screwed over if you want to.
And you should if the Historical conditions are in place as well. Ifs not a Historical game if everything is abstracted and generic, then the whole game will be arbitrary and there will be no point in playing the Kingdom of the Two Scillies and you might as well just be playing Tunisia for all that it counts.

Youre fixing one problem by going straight to the other extreme, which is just another way of saying youre breaking everything.
 

JoeGiavani

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But you should get an historic event around the time if the situation is similar that gives you the option of getting screwed over if you want to.
And you should if the Historical conditions are in place as well. Ifs not a Historical game if everything is abstracted and generic, then the whole game will be arbitrary and there will be no point in playing the Kingdom of the Two Scillies and you might as well just be playing Tunisia for all that it counts.

Youre fixing one problem by going straight to the other extreme, which is just another way of saying youre breaking everything.
You have EU3 registered so I assume you've played it. We've been promised a dynamic and open-ended system like that rather than forced historical events, that's just how it is.
I assume that if you preferred EU2 to EU3, you probably won't be that into Vicky 2. But then I was very sceptical of that approach until I played it myself and found out it's actually much better. Playing Vicky seems a bit weird now, the way so many events just don't make any sense but you still have to follow them.
 

Andrelvis

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You have EU3 registered so I assume you've played it. We've been promised a dynamic and open-ended system like that rather than forced historical events, that's just how it is.

But we can give our opinion, can't we? IMO Orinsul has nailed it on the head; the current approach is too radical.

I assume that if you preferred EU2 to EU3, you probably won't be that into Vicky 2. But then I was very sceptical of that approach until I played it myself and found out it's actually much better. Playing Vicky seems a bit weird now, the way so many events just don't make any sense but you still have to follow them.

This has been said thousands of times: if the right triggers are in place, the events will make sense.
 
Apr 30, 2006
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This has been said thousands of times: if the right triggers are in place, the events will make sense.

It's remarkable how much more harshly the event driven model is judged. If ever it fails, not matter how easily it could be fixed, it's condemned out of hand, while the "dynamic" way is given a pat on the fanny for managing to get anything right.
 

King

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I think that what they're asking is for Italian nationalism events to involve Garibaldi, rather than for a fixed historical event chain that necessarily revolves around Italy being unified by Piedmont-Sardinia.

What if he is dead when they fire?
 

King

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Lordy lord, hard coded historical events required to drive the game, instead of being for flavour purposes to make your country come alive, are a sign that your game design has failed.
 

LeeDub

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Hehe. Still, there should be some mention of historical figures. It adds much needed flavour. :)
 

King

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Hehe. Still, there should be some mention of historical figures. It adds much needed flavour. :)

So everytime someone gets a pan-nationalist uprising, regardless of which country we should mention Garibaldi?
 

Orinsul

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ye gods would somebody actually try thinking, who knows you might actually find it more fun.
Maybe their asking that IF a pan-nationalist uprising happens in ITALY during the appropraite years it uses a different Localisation text.
but oh know, thinking about what someone with a brain could be meaning takes too much time lets just jump to a radical conclusion and assume that all other people are stupid and think stupid things so we can justify our own position by pretending that all other positions can be discredited off-hand.

The Middle Posistion, is to have Historical Events that happen IF the historical conditions apply, not just bland events that dont quite cover anything and dont really make sense in any situation so just they can be applied to all situtations.
NO-ONE is saying, have events that happen on this date and cause big things to happen no-matter what but you still keep telling everyone that that is what they are saying even though simply reading what theirve written makes it quite clear they were not saying that or anything like it.
 

KevinG

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But you should get an historic event around the time if the situation is similar that gives you the option of getting screwed over if you want to.
And you should if the Historical conditions are in place as well. Ifs not a Historical game if everything is abstracted and generic, then the whole game will be arbitrary and there will be no point in playing the Kingdom of the Two Scillies and you might as well just be playing Tunisia for all that it counts.

Youre fixing one problem by going straight to the other extreme, which is just another way of saying youre breaking everything.

There's a huge difference between playing the two sicilies and tunisia. What you people don't seem to understand is that tunisia isn't italian and can't unite italy. It doesn't get the same national decisions or starting scenario as any italian kingdom. Therefore it will play differently. End of story.

This has been said thousands of times: if the right triggers are in place, the events will make sense.

Problem is you can NEVER get the triggers right. Also instead of trying to make the game more REALISTIC you people just want it to be historical at the cost of realism. Paradox should spend time making sure that if the certain conditions are met that you can simulate the effects of a trigger through normal gameplay mechanics, NOT the other way around where everything is rigid and doesn't make sense but you have a lot of "historical" events to patch it up.
 

Zelvik

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So everytime someone gets a pan-nationalist uprising, regardless of which country we should mention Garibaldi?

No but you could create the possibility for country specific text and pics for some of the events. Like Garibaldi for Italy in the case of a pan nationalist uprising or something about a Kremsier Parliament when there is a liberal revolution in Austria, instead of generic text that is the same for every nation.
 

lenny

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No but you could create the possibility for country specific text and pics for some of the events. Like Garibaldi for Italy in the case of a pan nationalist uprising or something about a Kremsier Parliament when there is a liberal revolution in Austria, instead of generic text that is the same for every nation.
So instead of making one generic pan-nationalistic even chain, you are asking for one of those (the same?) for each country, just so that you get some different flavor text? Sounds like an incredible waste of event IDs, but a great idea for a mod.
 

JoeGiavani

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It's remarkable how much more harshly the event driven model is judged. If ever it fails, not matter how easily it could be fixed, it's condemned out of hand, while the "dynamic" way is given a pat on the fanny for managing to get anything right.
Well considering the event-driven models answer to everything is "make the triggers right" that's a pretty rich thing to say. And how does the dynamic system fail? It may not be perfect, but at least in EU3 it feels like a natural dynamic world, Vicky 1 and EU2, good as they were, often had very "weird" worlds that didn't make sense, in fact more often than not the specific event chains wouldn't fire because you can't predict variables accurately in such a large system, so you just had to ignore the rest of the world and concentrate on your own borders.
 

Zelvik

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So instead of making one generic pan-nationalistic even chain, you are asking for one of those (the same?) for each country, just so that you get some different flavor text? Sounds like an incredible waste of event IDs, but a great idea for a mod.

No I am asking for an additional file that stores flavour texts and links to pics like the ones for unit names, party names and ideologies that we already do have in other paradox games. A simple flavour file for every country that can be used for such flavour text (just for the sake of modding - I am not asking paradox to include 150 different text files in the initial release).

For example you as Sardinia Piemont get the pan nationalist uprising event 1101. The game checks the flavour text file whetere there is an entry for an alternative flavour text for SP. If there is you get the Italy specific flavour text instead of the generic one.
 

lenny

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No I am asking for an additional file that stores flavour texts and links to pics like the ones for unit names, party names and ideologies that we already do have in other paradox games. A simple flavour file for every country that can be used for such flavour text (just for the sake of modding - I am not asking paradox to include 150 different text files in the initial release).

For example you as Sardinia Piemont get the pan nationalist uprising event 1101. The game checks the flavour text file whetere there is an entry for an alternative flavour text for SP. If there is you get the Italy specific flavour text instead of the generic one.
I haven't done a lot of modding (and none recently), but AFAIK Paradox's engine does not support what you want. If you want a different flavor text, you need a different event, so 1101 for Sardinia Piedmont, 1102 for Two Sicilies...
 

ComteDeMeighan

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Everybody is getting all worked up here but paradox games are very moddable these days from what I can see from the various mods made using the various engines. A new VIP will be made I'm sure which will add in all the national events you want. So no worries :cool:
 

JoeGiavani

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Everybody is getting all worked up here but paradox games are very moddable these days from what I can see from the various mods made using the various engines. A new VIP will be made I'm sure which will add in all the national events you want. So no worries :cool:
I can't see VIP removing flexible decisions from Vicky 2 and putting back hard-coded events that fire on a specific day and time. It'd kind of defeat the point.
 

Lord Martin

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So everytime someone gets a pan-nationalist uprising, regardless of which country we should mention Garibaldi?

Wouldn´t a good way to solve it be to have major events saying e.g:

My Lord/King/President etc. We suffer from a pan-nationalist uprising... blah blah blah. And after the event text something like a historical briefing: This happened e.g. in Italy where Garibaldi... blah blah blah.

The people who wants a bit more history gets it, but it´s not effecting the gameplay what so ever.
 

unmerged(75409)

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Becasuse if you run the Kingdom of the Two Scillies well you should not be screwed over by some arbitatary historical event.

Depends on your definition of arbitrariness, I would say... I'm just saying, *IF* you run Sicily badly, *THEN* you should see Garibaldi starting to raise hell. :)

Given that most of the time Sicily will be AI, and probably badly run, we should see Garibaldi most of the time. Otherwise we will see revolts in Sicily all the time, and ask ourselves, where is Garibaldi?

The possibility to see historical figures make an impact is IMHO what sets Victoria apart from a long-term sandbox game like Crusader Kings or EU3 where it would of course be silly to see Michelangelo or Gustav Adolf to pop up 100 or 250 years after the game was started. But a game which starts at a point where most of the historical people are already around should have those people.

Age of famous 19th century people on 1/1/1836:
Guiseppe Garibaldi - 28 years (already a seasoned veteran of the liberal rebellions at that point)
Otto von Bismarck - 20 years (already finished law studies, already strongly conservative, already in the Prussian civil service)
Abraham Lincoln - 25 years (already a member of the Illinois House of Representatives, and about to hold his first anti-slavery speech)
Isambard Kingdom Brunel - 29 years (working as chief engineer of the Thames tunnel in London)

Don't cull them all! The game would be so bland without them. :(
 

OHgamer

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I can't see VIP removing flexible decisions from Vicky 2 and putting back hard-coded events that fire on a specific day and time. It'd kind of defeat the point.

Well in VIP for VR we are already moving towards at least having options for players to take in the events, and events which did not have options were being reworked to provide options, and going through the major events to get the triggers to be much more context sensitive than they were in earlier renditions Given another year or two, that process will be much further along, and more alternative lines of development will be possible. But it all takes time, lots of time, to do. And the V1 event system retains a lot of rigidity that makes it very difficult to fit the situation on the ground during gameplay with the intent of the events being scripted, meaning very cumbersome triggers and extensive event chains with more flags than in front of the UN General headquarters needed to keep things organized.

For V2, VIP will most likely have to reapproach its event system it has to make it do what posters like Orinsul say but also clearly keeping an eye on the gameplay environment that V2 creates, both for the human player and for AI nations. I believe can be done, BUT wil require a good amount of rethink as to how to frame the triggers so that the context in which the events fire make sense and the impact of the events are not so draconian as to overly constrain future player action down one specific path (or at least ensure an "out" option) or spring upon the player something game-ruining just because it happened in history even if you are playing your nation in a different way (would Garibaldi's Red Shirts have landed in Sicily if the Bourbon regime was a progressive con-mon with a strong industrial base, and more importantly, would the island of Sicily have risen in support of Garibaldi in that situation, or was Garibaldi's success due to the nature of the Bourbon regime and economic conditions of 1850s Sicily. Should Sardinia get a Garibaldi & Redshirts event if 2S is not in the condition it was historically, especially if either 2S or Sardinia is being played by the human in this situation?).

Basically it means that event writers will have to think more openly, they can not simply construct the event based on the historical events that did happen, but also really must consider contexts in which the historical event would not make sense at all and the ahistorical routes that could have evolved had the historical action in response to the situation not been taken.

That said, the event system in EU3-HoI3 based games is MUCH more flexible in terms of crafting events and event triggers, once you understand the system and where it differs from the old. For example, it does alllow much more precise trigger writing and targeted effects so that context makes better sense for an event to fire and the impact can be better targeted to fit the situation in game, rather than the all-or-nothing approach to events that the old game engine was based on.

Part of the problem here I think is that players are only thinking in terms of what the EU3 toolkit has available for modders, which is no longer the whole story in terms of modding in Paradox games. In addition to the major steps forward made by Paradox in the various EU3 expansions, which means modding in Heir to the Throne is much more developed than in base EU3 1.0, alos don't forget that in the interim Paradox has also made HoI3, and anyone who has done some investigation into the decision and event system for that game should know that the nature of event writing in the current generation games took a giant leap forward with the HoI3 toolkit. See the decision and event system used in HoI3 for better explanation here of what I mean, but HoI3 adds a hell of alot more tools for modders, tools which I would expect will be abailable in large part for V2.

As I've said previously, probably the vast majority of VIP events can be translated over in my opinion. Will take some time, and some tweaking for balance to fit the new game environment, but I'd definitely say it can be done, but with the understanding that the triggers and effects need to clearly fire in the right context - geopolitical, internal political and socioeconomic.