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unmerged(104110)

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So heres an idea I came up with for Gibraltar specifically and other such naval bottlenecks possibly.

In 1942 Germany had 23 submarines in the Mediterranean theater (with 4 lost entering) which were never to take part again in the Battle of the Atlantic even when no longer needed as greatly in the Mediterranean.

This was due to the current that runs through the Straight into the Mediterranean which was so strong that in prevented a submarine from returning underwater while one night was not long enough for it to pass along the surface (where it could make headway due to the lesser effect of the current) in one night, thus leaving it very vulnerable, to the point of almost certain destruction, to the garrison at Gibraltar.

So what I propose is making a special case for Gibraltar that would allow submarines to pass from the Atlantic to the Med but not vice versa (surface ships would still be unable to pass through) , I do not know whether this is practical for game purposes (though i certainly like the idea :D ) or whether this could have a similar effect on the Bosporus, as in that case I do not know how the current would effect it and whether subs could pass through one way or perhaps both (surface ships again limited)

Edit: One more thing, one of the big concerns during the planning of Operation Torch was the Spanish stance toward the invasion, if the Spanish had decided to intervene militarily they could have effectively closed the Med to allied shipping with their artillery even if Gibraltar managed to hold (I read this bit in Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe), so my question is should the Spanish be able to close the Med even if they do not own Gibraltar? I'm not so sure that would be good to add to the game but we can see what you guys think :)

Another EDIT :D : How would later sub models affect this? With newer model with better underwater speed perhaps they could pass from the Med to the Atlantic at night :confused:
 
Last edited:

humancalculator

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It seems interesting but Paradox probably wouldn't do that since people then just wouldn't send them into the Med. or just would take Gibraltar.
 

unmerged(104110)

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Ah but what if you needed them in the Med to help tip the naval balance to your favor? Sending some more subs to help starve out Malta by sinking some convoys?

That is another thing I would like to see changed, it seems in HOI2 you cannot starve out a place like Malta till you sink the entire British merchant fleet :mad:, i mean you should be able to reassign ships to take over for the sunk ones but not to that extent

However I don't try to sink many convoys anymore because it didn't seem to work very well, so I could be mistaken.
 

blue emu

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Talon Karrde45 said:
Another EDIT :D : How would later sub models affect this? With newer model with better underwater speed perhaps they could pass from the Med to the Atlantic at night :confused:
That "better underwater speed" was usable only for short sprints, before power was exhausted... it certainly could not have been used for an entire day.
 

unorthodoxt

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I don't think they would model that and in the scheme of things what is 23 submarines?

The other part about the Spanish...I would love to have coastal defense cannons modeled in the game. Sailing up to the coast wasn't a cake walk. You would get artillery or even land mounted naval guns firing on the boats as well as any amphibious landing soldiers.
 

Dr Rare

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Johan Jung said:
Did not Italy deploy submarines in the atlantic based at Bordeaux?
Yes they did & at Penang &Singapore with the Germans in Japanese bases.

Dr
 

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Another thing about Gibraltar that usually p**s me off is that when you invade (or get them into your alliance) Spain, Britain and it's allies will quickly full up Gibraltar with something like 20 divisions or so... I mean, having 2 or 3 divisions in tiny little Malta is already a lot, but 20 Divisions in Gibraltar? Gibraltar has 6.8km^2, that means with a bit less than current 30.000 population, it has the 5th highest density in the world. Now, say it gets 300.000 soldiers there, it will be just a fiesta for the Spanish artillery. Make Gibraltar undefendable if Nat. Spain enters the Axis, and make it very hard to hold if the Germans go into (Rep.) Spain... just please find a way to stop those "20 divisions in a tiny place can fight with same efficency as on a huge battlefield" logic HoI had in part 1 and 2. I also do agree that Spain should be able to close the Med. as well if they join the Axis. Even without Gibraltar.
 

humancalculator

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General Guisan said:
Another thing about Gibraltar that usually p**s me off is that when you invade (or get them into your alliance) Spain, Britain and it's allies will quickly full up Gibraltar with something like 20 divisions or so... I mean, having 2 or 3 divisions in tiny little Malta is already a lot, but 20 Divisions in Gibraltar? Gibraltar has 6.8km^2, that means with a bit less than current 30.000 population, it has the 5th highest density in the world. Now, say it gets 300.000 soldiers there, it will be just a fiesta for the Spanish artillery. Make Gibraltar undefendable if Nat. Spain enters the Axis, and make it very hard to hold if the Germans go into (Rep.) Spain... just please find a way to stop those "20 divisions in a tiny place can fight with same efficency as on a huge battlefield" logic HoI had in part 1 and 2. I also do agree that Spain should be able to close the Med. as well if they join the Axis. Even without Gibraltar.


Just use military access to send troops to Spain before they join the Axis.
 

unmerged(13008)

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Maybe we could get a functioning coastal battery system. I mean, why shouldn´t I be allowed to "try" sneaking the Bismarck through Gibraltar.

It sure doesn´t work on the Nord-Ostsee Kanal in Northern Germany, and maybe alike with Panama and Suez, but for the rest I would like to give forces a chance.

Naval Detection could be significantly higher in those areas, Naval bombing deadlier because of lacking possibilties to maneuver and the chance for aircraft to close in from landside, unsee, but still, let them come and get some. Right now Coastal batteries can´t do nothing, except for -% in attackers efficiency.

I would love to see German cruiser "Blücher" sunk while trying to sneak onto Oslo. ^^

And aside of that, a fleet of 20 BB´s might just as well turn tables and shoot any coastal battery into dust.
 

unmerged(69678)

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GS_Guderian said:
Maybe we could get a functioning coastal battery system. I mean, why shouldn´t I be allowed to "try" sneaking the Bismarck through Gibraltar.

This is exactly what is need of course. Getting sub through the straits is no big deal, sneaking through capital ships should be another story with mines, coastal guns, and of course radar. This should be true though for any coastal area since you're not going to be to keen on doing a shore bombardment as a given if the enemy has massive shore batteries much like with AA guns.

I can't imagine this won't be improved, but who knows...
 

Earl Uhtred

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According to Das Boot, although the SURFACE current at Gibraltar passes from the Atlantic to the Med, once in the Med the water evaporates, its salinity increases, it sinks and passes out to the Atlantic at a greater depth :) So there's a two-way current. I don't know whether it's practical that a sub could exploit the lower current, though.
 

Okalahan

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I think that the solution will be to increase the penalty for this number of troops in some provinces like Gibraltar, Malta, Pacific islands....

and obviously, allowing submarines to pass the strait
 

HMS Enterprize

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Speaking of Gibraltar. It would be nice to have a province size to garrison ratio (same for all provinces actually). ie- you cant put 50 units on Gibraltar, its just not logistically feasible...and if you do, they suffer attrition, disease etc...as well as fight with a huge penalty.
 

ComradeOm

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offgreen said:
This is exactly what is need of course. Getting sub through the straits is no big deal, sneaking through capital ships should be another story with mines, coastal guns, and of course radar. This should be true though for any coastal area since you're not going to be to keen on doing a shore bombardment as a given if the enemy has massive shore batteries much like with AA guns
The problem is that Gibraltar is one of the very few examples of a sea zone that can be entirely covered by coastal defences. Most other coastal zones contain hundreds of square km that a ship could navigate without concern from land based batteries
 

Enzo

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Actually, I think I would like to see hoi3 taking into account both restriction :

1. Geographical size of the province should limit number of divs in it.
2. Infrastructure level in a given province should limit the number of divs that can be supplied. divs in excess will be severely penalized.

this should be true for every province, not only special case like Gibraltar.
 

blue emu

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Earl Uhtred said:
Y'know, what with provinces being all tiny now, I would hope there would be some 'hard' stacking limit...
I would prefer a "soft" cap, with increasing penalties for exceeding it.