Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

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Abdul Goatherd

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I seem to recall you being one of the big proponents of archeological evidence when it comes to eg. estimating the population of Rome :p

True. :)

And the sad thing is ..... we still resort to the written census records. :)

It's always going to be supplementary at best, adding a tidbit of flavor to the material context. Hardly a significant source, much less a principal one. And certainly negligible if you're looking for a chronology or a sequence of events. Facts in Gibbon remain unaltered by it.
 
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True. :)

And the sad thing is ..... we still resort to the written census records. :)

It's always going to be supplementary at best, adding a tidbit of flavor to the material context. Hardly a significant source, much less a principal one. And certainly negligible if you're looking for a chronology or a sequence of events. Facts in Gibbon remain unaltered by it.
It's been a few years since I read them, but from what I remember one of his key points was how awesome life was under the five good emperors, and how things steadily got worse for everyone as time went on. The current archaeology shows that it is more complicated, however. While there was a decrease in long distance trade, skeletal data shows that average nutrition improved with the fall of the empire.
 

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Depends on what you're expecting. if you want to read a very well written book, go for Gibbon. He had style, wit, and intelligence, and he managed all the classical sources that were available by his time. But as for real knowledge, what you'll learn is the basic sequence of events of what happened (as he quoted them from the classical sources) and also an understanding on how the Roman Empire was seen in the Age of Enlightenment and how its demise was used in the political and ideological issues of the late XVIII century (for example, the appearance of modern biblical criticism and the first stances of contemporary atheism, hence its take on the influence of Christian religion on the fall of the empire).

If you want more objective, detailed and accurate information about the realities of the Roman empire during the 180 - 630s AD period, you'll need to read contemporary research. Modern books on the subject are far drier than Gibbon's though, as today a professional historian is expected to be far more meticulous and objective than Gibbon was. If you have to constantly declare what your sources are and justify all the facts and hypotheses you present, it's practically impossible that you'll write the kind of book that Gibbon wrote. But one thing is good prose, and another thing is good history. And in a history book, I personally give far more value to the later, as long as the author writes with a minimum of readability. There are many aspects of the late Roman empire that are far better understood now than in Gibbon's time:
  • Rome's neighbours, the "barbarian" peoples of the north and the Sassanian empire, of which Gibbon had only the barest of knowledges. For example, he had no access to the Arabic sources which described the late Sassanian empire, or to Pahlavi inscriptions like those by Shapur I at his commemorative rock reliefs of his victories against the Romans. He also had no idea of what "barbarian" societies were really like, as the classical authors themselves left very poor accounts on the matter, and in this field archaeology has been invaluable.
  • Roman economic and social realities. For example, the archaeological excavations of near eastern Roman cities have revealed that the V-VI centuries were a period of great prosperity for Asia Minor, Syria and Egypt, with generalized population growth. That conflicts badly with Gibbon's views of a decadent "Byzantine" empire. Also, he totally ignored the socio-economic picture that modern scholars have of the western Roman society, with the issues of growing inequality, concentration of the property of land in fewer hands, generalized tax evasion, etc.
  • We also have a far better understanding of the military realities of the late Roman empire, and how the technological and organizative advantadge that Rome once had over its "barbarian" neighbours had mostly dissipated by the III century AD. By the IV century, it can be argued that eastern societies, both sedentary and nomadic, were even more technologically advanced in mobile warfare than Romans were.
All that knowledge comes from new archaeological evidence: excavations of ancient sites all over the Roman world, epigraphy, numismatics, Egyptian papyrii (very important findings like the Nag Hammadi scripts, the papyriii from Aphrodito and Oxyrrinchus, etc) and also from literary sources that Gibbons ignored. Those sources can be direct like in the case of Arabic texts, or indirect, derived from philological study and literary criticism of ancient sources already known to Gibbons: for example, he accepted the writings of authors like Tacitus or Suetonius almost uncritically at face value, while nowadays we understand that (as every human writer) they had a political, moral and personal agenda of their own, and their writings should be subjected to criticism.

As for recommended readings, I want to endorse also Chris Wickham's work, which offers a well-written-, clear, objective and detailed sumamry of the late roman and post-roman world up until the Carolingian/Abbasid eras. Also "The Roman Empire at Bay, AD 180-394" by David S. Potter is a good book, but quite hard to read. Also, for the III century crisis, I'd recommend Pat Southern's "The Roman Empire from Severus to Constantine", a quite readable book. "The Mediterranean World in Late Antiquity, AD 395-700" by Averil Cameron elaborates on Brown's earlier book and is also an exhaustive study of the realities of that era and geographical space.
 
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pirro

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The main problem with Chris is that he is a materialist marxist. His works have some points that I don't agree with and he prefers archaeological evidence over writen sources (which may lead to funny conclusions).

Cameron and Heather are fairly more objetive and "easier" to read. If you speak german, Alexander Demandt is quite good too. Ward-Perkins I consider only for the "experts" and I consider him a mixed bag. Valid points, erronous points, old points now forgotten...
Henry Irenée Marrou has a couple of good books on the late roman society and culture.

If you are interested about a specific moment, I have a big library of the era. It is my speciality after all :p
 

pirro

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I am not sure what you mean with "expert", but IMO he should be on the reading list for any intro course on the late Roman Empire. I would however agree that his book should not be the only book read about the "fall" of Rome.
He makes several claims I don't think are "good" for a newbie. He writes a good english, but as a historian he is not for the average Joe IMO
 

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The main problem with Chris is that he is a materialist marxist. His works have some points that I don't agree with and he prefers archaeological evidence over writen sources (which may lead to funny conclusions).
Huh, I never noticed that. I don't think Wickham's work is obviously biased and in fact I thought one of the best aspects was the way he treated the written record. Could be that it's more pronounced in some of his other works, I only read his contribution to the Penguin history of Europe series, The Inheritance of Rome.
 

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One of the options you have is to pick up the abridged version of Gibbon's six volumes. I finished it several months ago. If you're interested in historiography, you really should read Decline and Fall because it's one of the earliest works to really seek to determine logical causes for the decline of Rome and to attempt to evaluate the veracity of sources rather than just regurgitating classical sources. It's well written and does not take too long to get used to the writing style. It is a challenging read which is something I quote enjoyed. You'll get a general overview of a HUGE amount of events. He's also one of the first historians to really seek to deal with and understand the rise of Islam. It's interesting to view the rise of Islam through the lens of an eighteenth century Englishman.

Just keep in mind that his opinions of certain peoples/places is a combination of sexism and racism as was the norm for the time. You can also pick out his enlightenment biases from the text--especially re Catholicism. It is very interesting, however.
 

pirro

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Huh, I never noticed that. I don't think Wickham's work is obviously biased and in fact I thought one of the best aspects was the way he treated the written record. Could be that it's more pronounced in some of his other works, I only read his contribution to the Penguin history of Europe series, The Inheritance of Rome.
I have never read that book, because I have heard is little more than the usual political history of Europe till CM. In Framming the middle ages the bias is quite obvious
 

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I have never read that book, because I have heard is little more than the usual political history of Europe till CM. In Framming the middle ages the bias is quite obvious
You heard wrong. Though it is part of a series intended for laymen like me, the way Wickham deals with it is much more interesting than the usual. I'll see if I can get a hold of the other book, I'm interested now.