Getting the crown...from inside!

[Landmeister]

Dear all,

Now that I got the Conclave DLC I'm going to begin a game as a duke of Toulouse in the carolingian kingdom (year 769 AD). What is new to me is that I will try to become carolingian emperor by using the new DLC features instead of struggling for my independence. As far as I searched in this forum, there is no thread dedicated to explain how these new features can be used for my new goal. This is why I open this one, as a way to gather all relevant info about if possible.

Initially these are the only three ways to get it:

1. Marriying my male heir witth his/her female heir (chances are astronomically small for that to happen).
2. Creating my own faction and gathering as much support as possible to overthrown my liege. Is this a real option under Conclave? It was almost impossible before it unless my liege was a cruel heretic imbecile and I was a genious diplo master.
3. Changing heritance las to elective and gathering as much support as possible again (see point two).

Could someone please give some hints about how the Conclave could help me to achieve any of these options now?

Thank you very much in advance.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

1: Always a good plan.
2: Yes, but his heir will take over.
3: Possibly, but you'll have to gain the support of most of the electors, and then overthrow the Kaiser.

 

[StarSword]

Plan #1 is the one with the fewest steps. If you can manufacture an heir who has a claim to your liege's title, you or he can then create a claimant faction and overthrow the king (likely to end up being the King of Aquitaine given how the Carolingian Empire tends to collapse by gavelkind in the Charlie start).

 

[Landmeister]

2: Yes, but his heir will take over.

I'm afraid I don't understand you. Once I am the king his heir will have the same options I have as a duke. No more.

 

[Landmeister]

Plan #1 is the one with the fewest steps. If you can manufacture an heir who has a claim to your liege's title, you or he can then create a claimant faction and overthrow the king (likely to end up being the King of Aquitaine given how the Carolingian Empire tends to collapse by gavelkind in the Charlie start).

Yes, I know I won't be a multiking like Charlemagne I would be happy just being king of Aquitaine. How could I manufacture such a claim? Sending my chancellor to look for it would not work. Is there an alternative way?

 

[Aries666]

I'm afraid I don't understand you. Once I am the king his heir will have the same options I have as a duke. No more.

The overthrow liege CB deposes the current ruler in favour of his heir.

 

[StarSword]

Yes, I know I won't be a multiking like Charlemagne I would be happy just being king of Aquitaine. How could I manufacture such a claim? Sending my chancellor to look for it would not work. Is there an alternative way?

There's two ways to do it from your position. You can do like you said, try to breed a claimant to Aquitaine by marrying your son to his daughter, or you can plot to forge a claim on your liege's title. The second one might be faster (you can do it without waiting for the heir to inherit) but the first one is guaranteed to work: your grandson will end up with a claim, likely weak and uninheritable, but still one that's usable to create a faction to install him as the king. Then you invite other vassals to your faction or scheme to force them into it, then trigger the faction (and probably end up fighting your liege in a revolt).

Note that you'll have to wait until your current character or liege dies before you can start the factionalism: the marriage between your family and your liege will create a non-aggression pact that blocks you from being a faction member.

 

[Landmeister]

There's two ways to do it from your position. You can do like you said, try to breed a claimant to Aquitaine by marrying your son to his daughter, or you can plot to forge a claim on your liege's title. The second one might be faster (you can do it without waiting for the heir to inherit) but the first one is guaranteed to work: your grandson will end up with a claim, likely weak and uninheritable, but still one that's usable to create a faction to install him as the king. Then you invite other vassals to your faction or scheme to force them into it, then trigger the faction (and probably end up fighting your liege in a revolt).

Note that you'll have to wait until your current character or liege dies before you can start the factionalism: the marriage between your family and your liege will create a non-aggression pact that blocks you from being a faction member.

Interesting. I would like to try that one. Let's put it this way:

1. May male heir will marry the daughter's kingdom of Aquitaine claimant. Only a strong claimant will be considered, as claim will become weak when he/she dies and his/her daugther inherits it.

2. My heir and his now weak claimant wife have my grandson. Will the claim be still available for him? I'm pretty sure weak claims don't pass to the third generation.

Am I right?

 

[Landmeister]

... or you can plot to forge a claim on your liege's title.

Sorry I forgot to comment this part. A duke cannot forge a claim on his/her king's title. Only same/inferior lever titles to those being in possession can be forged.

 

[StarSword]

Sorry I forgot to comment this part. A duke cannot forge a claim on his/her king's title. Only same/inferior lever titles to those being in possession can be forged.

Yes, you can, but you can't do it with your chancellor. It's done with a plot available on the Intrigue menu, I believe it's called "Forge claim on liege".

 

[StarSword]

Interesting. I would like to try that one. Let's put it this way:

1. May male heir will marry the daughter's kingdom of Aquitaine claimant. Only a strong claimant will be considered, as claim will become weak when he/she dies and his/her daugther inherits it.

2. My heir and his now weak claimant wife have my grandson. Will the claim be still available for him? I'm pretty sure weak claims don't pass to the third generation.

Am I right?

Not quite. The child of a title-holder gets a strong, inheritable claim if they were second (possibly also third) in line for the throne. All other children get a weak, inheritable claim. Since it's doubtful the Kingdom of Aquitaine is going to be agnatic-cognatic that early in the game, your princess will probably be the second case, and her children will have weak, uninheritable claims on Aquitaine.

I did this myself the other day, bred an Irish crown prince with a claim to Sweden. Unfortunately the kingdom imploded under pagan attacks before I could use it...

 

[Chunakun]

As an extra help you can also use the intrigue focus and try to kidnap the king if you already have a claim. Forcing your demand will be very easy (if you don't feel like fighting a war). I know, most people will consider this gamey.

 

[Landmeister]

As an extra help you can also use the intrigue focus and try to kidnap the king if you already have a claim. Forcing your demand will be very easy (if you don't feel like fighting a war). I know, most people will consider this gamey.

I didn't know this possibility. I guess I won't be able to kidnap him unless I have a claim, right?

 

[Landmeister]

Yes, you can, but you can't do it with your chancellor. It's done with a plot available on the Intrigue menu, I believe it's called "Forge claim on liege".

Never heard of that before! So many years playing it and still discovering new features. Impressive!

 

[StarSword]

I didn't know this possibility. I guess I won't be able to kidnap him unless I have a claim, right?

Yes, you can. You have to pick the Intrigue focus, then right-click a character and select Spy On. Then you might get an event to hire thugs to kidnap the selected character.

 

[Achab]

It's possible for a chancellor to fabricate claim on a kingdom if his employer has the "become king" ambition.

It's possible to start a plot to Fabricate Claim on Liege under the conditions described here: http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Plot

 

[Landmeister]

Great info. Thanks to both!

 

[DorlasAnther]

1. Marry your liege´s daughter (preferably the eldest).
2. Do Intrigue focus (this is actually great every time, by creating quick succession of multiple rulers, you will destabilize the realm...and with chaos come opportunities) and kill off everyone who is before your wife in succession.
Next steps work with mods, I haven´t played classic version for ages, so I am not sure if you get required events:
3. Switch to Seduction focus and seduce your wife.
4. As soon as she dies, you get a chance to become depressed (unless you don´t, as I said before, mods).
5. Kill yourself.
6. Enjoy your new young king.

 

[StarSword]

1. Marry your liege´s daughter (preferably the eldest).
2. Do Intrigue focus (this is actually great every time, by creating quick succession of multiple rulers, you will destabilize the realm...and with chaos come opportunities) and kill off everyone who is before your wife in succession.
Next steps work with mods, I haven´t played classic version for ages, so I am not sure if you get required events:
3. Switch to Seduction focus and seduce your wife.
4. As soon as she dies, you get a chance to become depressed (unless you don´t, as I said before, mods).
5. Kill yourself.
6. Enjoy your new young king.

You can't use the Seduce action on your wife without mods.

 

[DorlasAnther]

You can't use the Seduce action on your wife without mods.

Well then, I think that with Family focus, there is event chain, where you and your wife become in love. And even if not, there are still events which do it.
And even if you don´t make her love you for psychopatic freak you are, you can still die before her or just wait until you die and hope that your son won´t lose your kingdom.