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Mr.Bigglesworth

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Originally posted by IEX Totalview
I argue the opposite; whether it was legal or not is irrelevent as to whether it was thought to be legal in 1861. A court ruled after the fact that the South could not secede, and you take that as clear evidence seccession was illegal? I disagree.
The Suprem Court does not have the power to make law, only Congress does. The Supreme Court interprets the law. In this case, the Supreme Court intrepreted the laws of 1861 and found that secession was, indeed, unconstitutional. Being that the Constituion is the supreme law of the land, it is therefore illegal to secede.

A court can't rule before the fact that you are guilty, only after it. Unless you are watching Minority Report, you can't be tried for a murder before it happens. It's the same thing here. Like I mentioned, the courts can't make new laws, just interpret them.

You could disagree with the Supreme Court, I disagreed with the Supreme Court in the election of 2000. But, alas, my opinion carries no weight of law, and Bush was given office anyway.

Originally posted by IEX Totalview
So can I argue the point or not? :p
Sorry, I don't understand myself sometime. Let me clarify: no. :D
 

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Originally posted by Suvorov
I see you didn't quote my most important point:
I didn't quote anything from this post yet, but I guess I'll do it now.
Originally posted by Suvorov
...that the South had been right all along and that Lincoln hadn't had any right to keep the Union together by force. This wouldn't have been acceptable in the South, nor in the North.
There is nothing in the Constitution that says the US can't attack a neighbor. The US can invade Canada and annex it and not be against the Constituion. And let's not forget who fired the first shots of the war...

You could say they were biased in 1869, but no court decision since then has reversed the decision, nor has any amendment to the constition gone into effect making secession legal.
 

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In the Dred Scott case, the Supreme Court said it was illegal for a state to deprive a citizen of his/her property (the slave in this case) if the slave was purchased legally in a slave state. So are you saying if New Jersey refused to protect the property rights of slave owning Southerners who travelled North, they were violating the Constitution? :confused:
 

Tim O

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Originally posted by IEX Totalview
In the Dred Scott case, the Supreme Court said it was illegal for a state to deprive a citizen of his/her property (the slave in this case) if the slave was purchased legally in a slave state. So are you saying if New Jersey refused to protect the property rights of slave owning Southerners who travelled North, they were violating the Constitution? :confused:

While it would have certainly been a position of moral courage it would have violated the Constitution as it existed at the time.
 

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Originally posted by Timothy Ortiz
While it would have certainly been a position of moral courage it would have violated the Constitution as it existed at the time.

Really? I would argue it didn't violate the Constitution, but rather the Supreme Court was biased and wrong in the Dred Scott case, and States had the right to forbid slavery if they wanted under the tenth admendment.
 

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Originally posted by IEX Totalview
In the Dred Scott case, the Supreme Court said it was illegal for a state to deprive a citizen of his/her property (the slave in this case) if the slave was purchased legally in a slave state. So are you saying if New Jersey refused to protect the property rights of slave owning Southerners who travelled North, they were violating the Constitution? :confused:
According to law, yes, I agree with Timothy Ortiz, it would have been illegal. However, you still need someone to enforce the law, and a lot of times those laws were not enforced if the person in charge thought them morally reprehensible. Where does this fit into my argument though?
 

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Originally posted by IEX Totalview
Really? I would argue it didn't violate the Constitution, but rather the Supreme Court was biased and wrong in the Dred Scott case, and States had the right to forbid slavery if they wanted under the tenth admendment.
However the Supreme Court interprets it at the times is the law of the land. Because in this case the slaves were going from state to state, they could call slaves inter-state commerce in this case, and therefore it would come under the jurisdiction of the federal government and not be under the jurisdiction of the slates.
 

IEX Totalview

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Originally posted by Mr.Bigglesworth
However the Supreme Court interprets it at the times is the law of the land. Because in this case the slaves were going from state to state, they could call slaves inter-state commerce in this case, and therefore it would come under the jurisdiction of the federal government and not be under the jurisdiction of the slates.

Right, but there was no Federal slavery statute, so, yes, the Federal government could regulate slavery, but it didn't choose to do so. Thus, the issue was left to the states.

Its like ****ography. Just because the Federal government regulates interstate trade doesn't mean Alabama can't ban sale of ****ography (or any other item) for moral reasons, reasons of public health or reasons of public safety. Slavery could easily fall into of these catagories.

Edit - whoa, magic asterixs appear out of nowhere! :eek:
 

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Originally posted by IEX Totalview
Right, but there was no Federal slavery statute, so, yes, the Federal government could regulate slavery, but it didn't choose to do so. Thus, the issue was left to the states.

Its like ****ography. Just because the Federal government regulates interstate trade doesn't mean Alabama can't ban sale of ****ography (or any other item) for moral reasons, reasons of public health or reasons of public safety. Slavery could easily fall into of these catagories.

Edit - whoa, magic asterixs appear out of nowhere! :eek:
The Dredd Scott decision didn't say that states did not have the right to outlaw the sale of slaves, just that a slave passing through would not be considered free. States could still outlaw it for moral reasons.

The decision IIRC also was in regards to property (they deemed slaves property). It was a case of the federal government regulating the taking of property between states, which in this case happened to be a slave.
 

BlkbrryTheGreat

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The Suprem Court does not have the power to make law, only Congress does. The Supreme Court interprets the law. In this case, the Supreme Court intrepreted the laws of 1861 and found that secession was, indeed, unconstitutional. Being that the Constituion is the supreme law of the land, it is therefore illegal to secede.

The Supreme Court is not the "supreme law of the land", the Constitution is. Under the Constitution, the three branches of government each have a say in Constitutionality. The President may Veto any unconstitutional law passed by Congress, the Congress chooses the laws to be passed (based in part on the law's Constitutionality) and may impeach the President for violating the Constitution, while the Supreme Court has the power of Judical Review. Power was divided among the three branches to keep in check the possibility of the Federal Government from violating the Constitution and growing tyrannical. Secession was thought to be the ultimate check on the power of the Federal Government, as is stated explicitly by James Madision; the AUTHOR of the Constitution.

...The advocates of secession always understood that it stood as a powerful check on the e xpansive proclivities of the federal government and that even the threat of secession or nullification could modify the federal government's inclination to overstep its constitutional bounds. A case can be made that secession would "destroy" such extra-constitutional abuses of power; perhaps that is what Lincoln had in mind when he used such language. The right to seced is not expressly prohibited by the Constitution. Moreover, at the constitutional convention, a proposal was made to allow the federal government to suppress a seceding state, but that propsal was rejected after James Madison said "A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State, would look more like a declaration of war, than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound."
In defending the individual right to bear arms embodied in the Second Amendment to the Constitution, Madison invoked the right of armed secession. In warning against the dangers of a standing army controlled by the federal government that might invade a state (or states), Madison believed that with a well-armed populace, "the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger"
(cited from "The Real Lincoln" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo pg 114-115)

There is nothing in the Constitution that says the US can't attack a neighbor. The US can invade Canada and annex it and not be against the Constituion.

True, but the Constitution does give Congress the power to declare war and ratify treaties with foreign powers. Congress did not declare War on the CSA.
 

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Originally posted by BlkbrryTheGreat
The Supreme Court is not the "supreme law of the land", the Constitution is.
Which is what I meant when I wrote, "the Constitution is the supreme law of the land," which you quoted above.
Originally posted by BlkbrryTheGreat
Under the Constitution, the three branches of government each have a say in Constitutionality. The President may Veto any unconstitutional law passed by Congress, the Congress chooses the laws to be passed (based in part on the law's Constitutionality)

Only the Supreme Court has a say in what is constitutional. The president can pass or veto and law regardless of its constitutionality, but if it is unconstitutional it will probably get struck down by the Supreme Court. Same with the Congress.

Originally posted by BlkbrryTheGreat
and may impeach the President for violating the Constitution,

The President, and other officials, may only be impeached for "Treason, Bribery, and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." For example, if the President signs a law on gun control which is later found to violate the 2nd amendment, he can't be impeached for it.

Originally posted by BlkbrryTheGreat
Secession was thought to be the ultimate check on the power of the Federal Government, as is stated explicitly by James Madision; the AUTHOR of the Constitution.

The constitution was written by several delegates from all of the states, not one man. It was based on Madison's Virginia plan as a starting point, but many things were changed along the way. The system was designed so that the Federal Government could not overstep its bounds, rendering an "ultimate check" worthless. With that being said, Madison's quote in your example sounds like he wanted to keep a clause out of the constitution that allowed the Federal Army to attack states for things other than secession. The previous compacts he mentions would have also been void anyway if secession occured. It must also be noted that Thomas DiLorenzo has some radical ideas about the Civil War.

Originally posted by BlkbrryTheGreat
True, but the Constitution does give Congress the power to declare war and ratify treaties with foreign powers. Congress did not declare War on the CSA.

The CSA, in the eyes of Union law, was not a foreign power, so Congress did not have to declare war. And the CSA fired the first shots of the war and had also already stolen a large amount of Federal property (forts, ammunition stores, ect.).
 

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Originally posted by Mr.Bigglesworth
The CSA, in the eyes of Union law, was not a foreign power, so Congress did not have to declare war. And the CSA fired the first shots of the war and had also already stolen a large amount of Federal property (forts, ammunition stores, ect.).

Which is why officially announcing a Southern blockade was one of Lincoln's "doh" moments. He was in effect admitting the South was independent. What he should have done was announced the U.S. was closing in ports in the offending States. Semantics, true, but still interesting.
 

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supreme law of the land

The real suoprem law of the land is in fact Congress, after all it is the only body(except for state conventions) that can ammend the constitution to make any law, the Supreme Court calls unconstituional, constitutinal.
And in addition, the Suprem Court was never granted the power of Judicial Review, Marshall just took it in Madison v Marbury. It is very doubtful if the founding fathers really wanted a group of five now nine men, with life time appointements, to have the power to control the constituion.
 

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Bigglesworth, after the tarrif of adomination, Calhoun was planning to seccede South Carolina from the union. Thus there was a precedent for the Suprem Court to rule on the constitutinality of secceding, it did not. The only reason it did 20 some years later was because Congress, dominated by radical republicans, and the overall feeling of the North forced it to justify the war, like Totalview and Suvorov said.
 

BlkbrryTheGreat

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Which is what I meant when I wrote, "the Constitution is the supreme law of the land," which you quoted above.

Opps, a misread on my part.

Only the Supreme Court has a say in what is constitutional.

Not true at all, Andrew Jackson ignored a Supreme Court decision using as justification the ability of the three branches of government to determine for themselves what is Constitutional. In fact, the power of Judical Review is not even granted to the Supreme court in the Constitution, rather it was an power that John Marshall invented for the Supreme Court in Marbairy vs Madison, using exactly this logic.

The president can pass or veto and law regardless of its constitutionality,[/QUOTE]

True, but they're not supose to, as is implied when they take their oath of office.

"Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." "

The President, and other officials, may only be impeached for "Treason, Bribery, and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." For example, if the President signs a law on gun control which is later found to violate the 2nd amendment, he can't be impeached for it.

That Presidents are not impeached for doing so does not mean they cannot be impeached doing so. The President takes an oath of office, for him, violating the Constitution certainly qualifes as "other high Crimes and Misdemeanors".

To provide an example, would you say that Congress would NOT be justified in impeaching the President if he arbitarily supressed Free Speech and Freedom of the Press while throwing the Supreme Court in Prision and replacing them with loyal military officers? After all, all he did was violate the Constitution....


The constitution was written by several delegates from all of the states, not one man. It was based on Madison's Virginia plan as a starting point, but many things were changed along the way. The system was designed so that the Federal Government could not overstep its bounds, rendering an "ultimate check" worthless

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that States cannot seceed or that the Union is indissolvable. Thus it is a power retained by the States and the people under the 10th Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

Madison's quote in your example sounds like he wanted to keep a clause out of the constitution that allowed the Federal Army to attack states for things other than secession.

Did you even read the preceding sentance? Madison's quote on this issue was specifically on whether the Constitutional Convention should GRANT the Federal Government the power to supress a seceeding state.

Secondly, you completely ignored Madison's defense of the 2nd Amendment based on the Right of States to seceed. The fact remains, if the Federal Government was to have the power to supress seceeding States then it would have been explictily stated so in the Constitution.

It must also be noted that Thomas DiLorenzo has some radical ideas about the Civil War.

Appeal to riddicule, that DiLorenzo has a differing ("radical")opinion is irrelevant to the validty of the arguement.

The CSA, in the eyes of Union law, was not a foreign power, so Congress did not have to declare war.

Irrelevent in terms of your orginal arguement which was that there was nothing in the Constitution which supported the idea that the US could invade an annex a neighbor. The federal government IS granted this power, however it is NOT granted the power to prevent States from seceeding.

And the CSA fired the first shots of the war and had also already stolen a large amount of Federal property (forts, ammunition stores, ect.).

Both the fort and the ammunition were legally the South's upon secession. Before the Civil War the majority of Federal Income came from Tariffs, Tariffs t hat were paid mostly by the South; giving them the right to take their "fair share" when they left the Union. Ft. Sumpter also sits on t he soil of the South, thus if the South attacked the fort they were in reality, only attacking thier property and not the Federal Governments. The Federal Soldiers in Ft. Sumpter were there illegaly.
 

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CSA Capital Creation

Originally posted by cthulhu
I think the CSA AI or player should be able to choose another capital, like Atlanta.

This would be a nice event for the CSA:

The CSA capital is named as:
A) Richmond;
B) Atlanta.
 
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On the CSA choosing a capital.

I had always understood that the choice of the capital to be in Richmond was because the province of Virginia whose capital is Richmond was a very powerful province in terms of manpower and economy but was at the same time rather moderate in its politics. That is, the choice was to make sure that this powerful province would choose to secede, by allowing it to have the "national" capital of the CSA as well.

In the alternative, say that the capital was in another place, then maybe the powerful Virginia would choose NOT to secede and then the CSA cause is very greatly damaged. Even with the powerful Virginia, they could not quite keep out the North.
 

Mr.Bigglesworth

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Originally posted by IEX Totalview
Which is why officially announcing a Southern blockade was one of Lincoln's "doh" moments. He was in effect admitting the South was independent. What he should have done was announced the U.S. was closing in ports in the offending States. Semantics, true, but still interesting.
Yeah, that was a dumb way of putting it by Lincoln.