Getting rekked by China

[Adonnus]

I used to be able to beat China easily as Japan so I was dumbfounded when I completely failed just now. The year is 1939, February. I've prepared 3 heavy tank divisions with 200 soft attack each, as well as 7 motorised and about 30 infantry with 2 arty each. I also have about 50 divisions of varying quality from puppets, and 10 cavalry. 100 tactical bombers.

Now, my plan was to attack West of Beijing and encircle with paratroops coming from the East
This did not work. Why? The Chinese immediately attack me. So far it is April, and they have been attacking the entire time without stopping. I thought my tanks would make short work of them but... they lose. Also, my naval invasion of Shanghai was a disaster. I had to retreat.

I noticed I have a whopping -50% penalty for some reason which I can't get rid of until I've taken 30% of China. This doesn't make a ton of sense historically as it was the Chinese army not the Japanese which was a mess, apart from the elite units they put into the meatgrinder at Shanghai. In fact I would even argue it should be the other way around. The Japanese army was historically overextended, so it makes more sense to become less effective the further you go. But I disagree with the whole idea of arbitrary combat modifiers. What's more, the Chinese have a 35% defensive bonus which gives their very regular infantry about 450 defence.

So anyway. I thought I had a pretty decent army but it is doing literally nothing. Any advice?

 

[Cavalry]

This did not work. Why? The Chinese immediately attack me. So far it is April, and they have been attacking the entire time without stopping. I thought my tanks would make short work of them but... they lose. Also, my naval invasion of Shanghai was a disaster. I had to retreat.

There is a decision to remove Japan penalties. But for now you can just increase firepower to offset the penalty. There is a wunder infantry template and a wunder tank temples, use them both in attack. To prevent enemy attack and stop you from moving, just mass troops and attack them first in several provinces. If they already attack you, then attack the province where they come to attack.

Wunder weapon of 2022. Better warring through research!

Lady and Gentlement I present the secret wunder weapon that every country can get now. The 2022 attack template, the Greek template that won the Euro West: This juggernaught in group has power equal to a group or 1100 soft attack tank...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[mursolini]

I used to be able to beat China easily as Japan so I was dumbfounded when I completely failed just now. The year is 1939, February. I've prepared 3 heavy tank divisions with 200 soft attack each, as well as 7 motorised and about 30 infantry with 2 arty each. I also have about 50 divisions of varying quality from puppets, and 10 cavalry. 100 tactical bombers.

Now, my plan was to attack West of Beijing and encircle with paratroops coming from the East
This did not work. Why? The Chinese immediately attack me. So far it is April, and they have been attacking the entire time without stopping. I thought my tanks would make short work of them but... they lose. Also, my naval invasion of Shanghai was a disaster. I had to retreat.

I noticed I have a whopping -50% penalty for some reason which I can't get rid of until I've taken 30% of China. This doesn't make a ton of sense historically as it was the Chinese army not the Japanese which was a mess, apart from the elite units they put into the meatgrinder at Shanghai. In fact I would even argue it should be the other way around. The Japanese army was historically overextended, so it makes more sense to become less effective the further you go. But I disagree with the whole idea of arbitrary combat modifiers. What's more, the Chinese have a 35% defensive bonus which gives their very regular infantry about 450 defence.

So anyway. I thought I had a pretty decent army but it is doing literally nothing. Any advice?

You can beat China relatively easily, even just with odd 4 tank division volunteer of Germany/Italy.

Don`t try to encircle Beijing, it usually is impossible to get something decent there due to very poor terrain and inability to supply your spearhead. Get ports, Quindao in particular is important. Broader front to make sure there is a lot less Chinese troop concentration. Attack along the rail lines to secure supply hubs, they are quite far apart. Use light tanks, prioritize speed. Japanese templates are a pain, but I`d use their motorized template as a base for tank divisions.

Build some mountaineers for Shanxi and Commi China. Use CAS/TAC to support. Retreat your marines once Quindao is secured, reform them into something decent, and only then attack Shanghai. Then retreat, and naval attack Guanxi Cluque.

I wouldn`t bother with a lot of infantry. Chinese theatre is not good in supply, so prioritise air support, in particular TAC, as those are your best early support.

China AI doesn`t build AT or AA, at least I don`t see them, so no need to bother with heavies, they are a waste of supply and speed.

 

[Panther G]

I've prepared 3 heavy tank divisions with 200 soft attack each, as well as 7 motorised and about 30 infantry with 2 arty each. I also have about 50 divisions of varying quality from puppets, and 10 cavalry. 100 tactical bombers.

I would not spend significant research days as Japan on tanks in general.

Now, my plan was to attack West of Beijing and encircle with paratroops coming from the East
This did not work. Why?

Again, paratroopers require research days and IC for the transport planes, I would not spend both and rather go for a big and cheap infantry and cavalry army.

The Chinese immediately attack me. So far it is April, and they have been attacking the entire time without stopping.

They are quite aggressive, adjust your strategy to that.

I thought my tanks would make short work of them but... they lose. Also, my naval invasion of Shanghai was a disaster. I had to retreat.

In some cases, they guard the coast and cities very well and only with speed you can advance fast.

For more hints see this similar thread, where the topic was already brought up:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/please-help-me-play-as-japan.1536231/

a previous thread of the same author:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/i-cant-beat-china-as-japan.1478549/

 

[Cavalry]

I used to be able to beat China easily as Japan so I was dumbfounded when I completely failed just now.

The balance is changed to favor smaller width divisions. No solution is completed without addressing the old templates

 

[Cavalry]

Don`t try to encircle Beijing, it usually is impossible to get something decent there due to very poor terrain and inability to supply your spearhead.

Only 2 provinces needed to encircle Beijing, looks not hard. Take the west hill first because you can attack from 2 directions. After that you can take the sound plain province from 2 directions. But as Japan you can attack both as the same time.

 

[mursolini]

Only 2 provinces needed to encircle Beijing, looks not hard. Take the west hill first because you can attack from 2 directions. After that you can take the sound plain province from 2 directions. But as Japan you can attack both as the same time.

View attachment 866869

Ok, I was trying to get 3 province wide encirclement, too greedy, I guess.

 

[Cystalz]

I used to be able to beat China easily as Japan so I was dumbfounded when I completely failed just now. The year is 1939, February. I've prepared 3 heavy tank divisions with 200 soft attack each, as well as 7 motorised and about 30 infantry with 2 arty each. I also have about 50 divisions of varying quality from puppets, and 10 cavalry. 100 tactical bombers.

Now, my plan was to attack West of Beijing and encircle with paratroops coming from the East
This did not work. Why? The Chinese immediately attack me. So far it is April, and they have been attacking the entire time without stopping. I thought my tanks would make short work of them but... they lose. Also, my naval invasion of Shanghai was a disaster. I had to retreat.

I noticed I have a whopping -50% penalty for some reason which I can't get rid of until I've taken 30% of China. This doesn't make a ton of sense historically as it was the Chinese army not the Japanese which was a mess, apart from the elite units they put into the meatgrinder at Shanghai. In fact I would even argue it should be the other way around. The Japanese army was historically overextended, so it makes more sense to become less effective the further you go. But I disagree with the whole idea of arbitrary combat modifiers. What's more, the Chinese have a 35% defensive bonus which gives their very regular infantry about 450 defence.

So anyway. I thought I had a pretty decent army but it is doing literally nothing. Any advice?

I agree with panther G, go check those threads out to get some hints. But I'll put my advises here as well.

1)you can remove the -50% penalty from 'escalate the war in china' decision.
2)Chinese attacking aggressively from Beijing are actually good for farming generals exp if u managed to hold them, I had a few generals gained 'ranger' and 'organise' trait just after few months thanks to that.
3)Invade the china as early as possible before 1938 is recommended as Nat China is still suffering from lacking equipments and tech to fight u. Besides, they still have the big 30% penalty from army corruption.
4)Take 'tip of the spear' in the spirit of army and use marine for better chance to win the naval invasion, bring your battleships near to the invading location for extra coastal bombardment bonus.
5) You don't need to attack Shanxi unless you want to 'meat grinder' with them, you only need to capitulate Nat China to win the war, you can get their territory in the peace conference any way, but do makes sure they are participating the war.
6)Bringing heavy tank is not suggested to invade China, all due to the China is full of rivers and hills, and lacking supply hub compare to the Europe, no supply means no oil, the tanks soon become paper tanks as soon as thier oil in fuel tanks drop to 0 and the terrain penalty doesn't help either.
Good luck.

 

[Adonnus]

Well I tried some of the advice here. I tried landing in Qingdao and I got obliterated, I lost 10 divisions. I keep getting pushed back too, also I don't have air superiority.

Basically I have no idea why I'm losing, as you can see we have relatively even numbers but I have waaaaay better stats. That should lead in theory to a victory, no? Instead I am getting constantly pushed back and can't win any battles.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1740097861420060593/2173516D4CBEC0680CFCFE0505C6B8ED31EE609B/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1740097861420060285/1D5D67CB775C17596ED0C78DB920BBC9C59009AB/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1740097861420060405/E0CCDC0B947246F8A1CF2D6DFBCE696AE662932B/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1740097861420060498/BBEE5684B745A71721757F0CADB9D7F64546544C/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

I am about to give up, this makes zero sense to me at all.

 

[mursolini]

Well I tried some of the advice here. I tried landing in Qingdao and I got obliterated, I lost 10 divisions. I keep getting pushed back too, also I don't have air superiority.

How? What was the invasion force, and did you take a port right away, with marines, for example?

Basically I have no idea why I'm losing, as you can see we have relatively even numbers but I have waaaaay better stats. That should lead in theory to a victory, no? Instead I am getting constantly pushed back and can't win any battles.

You don`t have even numbers, in many cases, you only have one division per province.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1740097861420060593/2173516D4CBEC0680CFCFE0505C6B8ED31EE609B/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1740097861420060285/1D5D67CB775C17596ED0C78DB920BBC9C59009AB/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1740097861420060405/E0CCDC0B947246F8A1CF2D6DFBCE696AE662932B/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1740097861420060498/BBEE5684B745A71721757F0CADB9D7F64546544C/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

I am about to give up, this makes zero sense to me at all.

Why not post a save game? Right before Marko polo, and then current.

You are out of fuel, why?

 

[Adonnus]

How? What was the invasion force, and did you take a port right away, with marines, for example?

You don`t have even numbers, in many cases, you only have one division per province.

Why not post a save game? Right before Marko polo, and then current.

You are out of fuel, why?

1. 10 infantry with tanks, I tried to land on either side of it. But they had 6 divisions in the port, so yeah I died. Marines wouldn't have helped.

2. I was mainly talking about the battle which I put as an example. Which is, even if I have numbers, I don't win with superior stats. I can get plenty of divisions on each province if I wanted to, the problem is they don't win.

3. Because it's ironman

4. Because it disappeared after the war started

 

[Cavalry]

I want my China ally can do that! Generally I don't recommend naval invasion for newbie, you have to master the basic first.

Note that the China AI in later year can have an inferior version of wunder infantry. It is still very good! Your game can be fixed very quickly by mass produce the 4inf-support arty template.

The Jap divisions lost because of constant attack of China. They don't have enough firepower to stop it quick. And they don't have peace time for rest.

 

[Terracos]

So as a mainly Japan player a few tips:

1. You can't beat China in a fancy way, do not try stuff like heavy tanks or paratroopers. All them shenanigans just lose you the game outright. You neither have the factories nor the tech to do so
2. You need to get to Marco Polo ASAP, it should be Focus number 8, first go straight to the focus that gives you total mobilisation (leave out the tech slot), then straight to Marco Polo. No Spiritual Mobilisation or Tech Slot. You compensate Spiritual Mob with the Army decision for +2% Recruitable Pop and the Techslot can be picked up after the war starts.
3. Never attack before you did all the "Escalate the War with China" Focuses.
4. At the start recruit 3 more marines
4. Only Produce Trains (1Civ), Trucks (2Civs), Infantery Equipment(8Civs), Support Equipment(2Civs), Arty(3Civs) and Tac Bombers(all the other Civs)
5. Do not Call Manchuko nor Menchukuko into the Fight. They just eat your supply.
6. You only really need 16 Units to push the Chinese, and they are an updated Version of you starting Template (12 Inf). Change this one to 9/3 and add support Arty. This template can push China with ease
7. 8 of this Push infantry is in the north on the 3 provinces bordering China togheter with 15 of the defensive Infantries
8. Only recruit defensive infantry, your frontline will become long
9. The other 8 Push Infantry Land in Shanghai (of course when you escalated all the way) and straight away push towards the Airport West of it, at the same time Push the north
10. Land with the 4 Marines in Quingdao and bring in the Cavalry, Tank and Moto divs and clear the peninsula to the east
11. Very Important the first 150pp go for the Illusive Gentleman (the next 30 to increae the recruitable pop)
12. build the Agency straigt away and upgrade to get 2 spies (number 3 comes from the gentleman)
13. get 3 collabs ASAP on China
14. Very Important, after you have Nanjing you must push along the yellow river to the next supply depot. If you reach that and control both banks of the river you technically won because now you are in a superior supply position than China.

 

[Federkiel]

I used to be able to beat China easily as Japan so I was dumbfounded when I completely failed just now. The year is 1939, February. I've prepared 3 heavy tank divisions with 200 soft attack each, as well as 7 motorised and about 30 infantry with 2 arty each. I also have about 50 divisions of varying quality from puppets, and 10 cavalry. 100 tactical bombers.

Now, my plan was to attack West of Beijing and encircle with paratroops coming from the East
This did not work. Why? The Chinese immediately attack me. So far it is April, and they have been attacking the entire time without stopping. I thought my tanks would make short work of them but... they lose. Also, my naval invasion of Shanghai was a disaster. I had to retreat.

I noticed I have a whopping -50% penalty for some reason which I can't get rid of until I've taken 30% of China. This doesn't make a ton of sense historically as it was the Chinese army not the Japanese which was a mess, apart from the elite units they put into the meatgrinder at Shanghai. In fact I would even argue it should be the other way around. The Japanese army was historically overextended, so it makes more sense to become less effective the further you go. But I disagree with the whole idea of arbitrary combat modifiers. What's more, the Chinese have a 35% defensive bonus which gives their very regular infantry about 450 defence.

So anyway. I thought I had a pretty decent army but it is doing literally nothing. Any advice?

Good advice from the other forum members but i think the thing is being screwed up already. The reason is fairly simple: Your invasion came too late.

The game is being balanced to JAP DoWing CHI in the mid of 1937. CHI got buffed with additional CIV/MIL in some more distant patch so they can fill their ranks and put up a fight by then. Thelatest patches made AI guard it's coast a lot better which is a good thing in general (remember Sealion cakewalks?!). The side effect is that AI CHI gets spread out a lot and you can grind your way through nothern China with superior troop compositions and numbers.

This effect will be offset as soon as AI CHI considers it's troops being consolidated. This happens somewhere in 1938 if you had not attacked them prior. CHI has more than 20 MILs by that time... AI then shifts to build and fill up it's templates with either support AA and / or support ART. This takes away a lot of your troop superiority.

I understand that you want to attack later and get through some powerful focuses like National Defense State, New Naval Estimates, Supremacy of Will, the Zero and Unified Fighter Development before going to war. However, this all is too much of a shopping list to do before your initial / early advantages against China are gone.

The earlier you invade, the better the odds are. General advice is to let AI CHI bash itself against you for about half a year until you got rid of the combat maluses and then go to the offense yourself. Be aware that your own border troops should not be too strong - then the Chinese will not attack at all. The opposition will be weakened through attrition, your troops and generals be more experienced and you can make full use of the planning bonus (even more if you stuck to Grand Battle Plan - which is a good doctrine for INF based armies.

For now: Try to
- get rid of Marco Polo Bridge Incident maluses if any still exist
- get Okamura into High Command
- go straight to Supremacy of Will if you don't have it already
- build one or two airbases to get your planes into action nearby
- use a CTF with some BBs on the coast to bring in carrier based air power (carrier planes can be based and used on land, too) and to get shore bombardment modifiers for coastal combat and naval invasions
- although expensive, i strongly recommend support engineers (all divisions you can afford them for) for line defense, urban assault and to gain movement speed bonuses in general
- MOT divs (9+ battalions) are your friend in early campaigns. They won't get pierced easily but grant quite some soft attack and - more important - breakthough along with astounding speed to advance after a combat has been won. Unlike much of the rubbish equipment one has to produce early on, their usefulness remains throughout the game. 3 to 6 divs of them do wonders in China
- cast a thick spy network in the front area. It spreads over time and gives you up to +15% bonus in combat

@Cavalry 's hint for his special divs is a very efficient way for China - and if you tag switch, you see that AI CHI goes towards such a thing - but you are the attacker and you need superior power to surpass enemy stats and thus cause more damage per hour.

 

[Cystalz]

1. 10 infantry with tanks, I tried to land on either side of it. But they had 6 divisions in the port, so yeah I died. Marines wouldn't have helped.

2. I was mainly talking about the battle which I put as an example. Which is, even if I have numbers, I don't win with superior stats. I can get plenty of divisions on each province if I wanted to, the problem is they don't win.

3. Because it's ironman

4. Because it disappeared after the war started

Most of ur division org are pretty low, either u tried to attack them that exhausting ur division org or ai keep attacking u without letting ur division to recover.
U probably use too much tanks and planes that exhausted your fuel, right now u are in year 1939, research excavation 3 to unlock a decision that provides more fuel in ur homeland. Or trade fuels from market.

 

[Cavalry]

@Cavalry 's hint for his special divs is a very efficient way for China - and if you tag switch, you see that AI CHI goes towards such a thing - but you are the attacker and you need superior power to surpass enemy stats and thus cause more damage per hour.

No the template is not just about cheap, it is about the most powerful template, and 50% more powerful than the China AI's one. If you have IC then you can add armor recon or cavalry recon, or a tank battalion. It looks so simple that many under estimate its power!

that 8 width as a group is 50% more powerful than 12w and nearly 4 times more powerful than 30 width.

 

[Gort11]

No the template is not just about cheap, it is about the most powerful template, and 50% more powerful than the China AI's one. If you have IC then you can add armor recon or cavalry recon, or a tank battalion. It looks so simple that many under estimate its power!

that 8 width as a group is 50% more powerful than 12w and nearly 4 times more powerful than 30 width.

How does your maths work, here?

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Well I tried some of the advice here. I tried landing in Qingdao and I got obliterated, I lost 10 divisions. 10 infantry with tanks, I tried to land on either side of it. But they had 6 divisions in the port, so yeah I died. Marines wouldn't have helped.

And your fleet with nCAS were doing what during that time? Want successful invasions into defended areas? Support them (ideally, with your main army thrust that would encircle divisions scrambled to defend the port).

Marines do help with taking occupied tiles - way better than plain infantry, at least. Not that you can't send plain infantry in, but it's mostly for the "safe" landings, where they can encircle and attack a port from... or in a move of desperation to block incoming reinforcements when you don't have enough marines to pull off something like this:

Also: when you land infantry with tanks, those tanks become redundant due to lack of fuel in a couple of days - something to keep in mind.

I don't have air superiority.

Fuel aside, you've got to build enough airfields at the border to have it.

Basically I have no idea why I'm losing, as you can see we have relatively even numbers but I have waaaaay better stats. That should lead in theory to a victory, no? Instead I am getting constantly pushed back and can't win any battles.

Better stats don't make your divisions invulnerable. When enemy has numerical superiority and spare manpower, he can org cycle you to death, regardless of stats (and that's about the extent of AI strategic genius, sadly - it simply incapable of any other strategy).

How does your maths work, here?

Probably, along the lines of firepower*org (per width)? Low width divisions were fairly powerful even before the rework (although, did bleed manpower and equipment like there's no tomorrow); add SF and it might be borderline OP now.

 

[Gort11]

If it's just "how much soft attack I can get per width" then I guess a 2 width infantry "division" with support artillery must be even more powerful

 

[Cavalry]

How does your maths work, here?

Most of the firepower is stacked in the supports. the line battalion don't have much.
For example, 40w will fit 5 divisions with 8w, or 2 division with 20w. So a group of 8w division will have 2.5 times more support fire than 20x.

Now the 8w tank templates, on 40w, these have a firepower of 5x232= 1160 soft attack. A very expensive 40w tank division have only 800 soft attack at nearly double the cost.