Getting crushed by Japanese navy as USA - any help?

[unmerged(47610)]

Hi, I played alot of Hoi2 before the expansions several years ago and just recently picked up the expansions and started playing again. I've read the naval primer on the wiki and composed my fleet according to that... here's basically what I have:

2 large/modern CTFs (6 CVs, 2 CVLs, 10 DDs)

1 large/modern SAG (6 SHBBs, 2 CVLs, 10 DDs)

several smaller SAGS and a couple smaller CTFs made with the ships the USA starts with... these are like 6 and 12 stacks made of the right proportion of capitals to screen, intended to use them to do stuff like mess with italy or unescorted transports or just whatever

anyways so its january 1942, japan just declared war on me.. I move a CTF and the SAG out near the philipines... suddenly my CTF (led by Nimitz) runs into a 30 stack japanese fleet and literally gets annihilated almost instantly. 1 CA makes it out

So uhm....what do I do? I mean even assuming I go back several months or something and reorganize before the war... according to the wiki this is the most effective CTF setup? How do I manage to not get annihilated?

 

[Taillesskangaru]

That's nasty. How are your naval doctrines?

 

[unmerged(96020)]

I'm no naval expert (you might be better off waiting for the resident masters ), but maybe I can offer some conjectures:

1) How far have you gone in researching naval doctrines? Since the Japanese are among the quickest to research the doctrines, and they have the same path as you, keeping up to date or even slightly ahead is very important for the USA (and vice versa for a player Japan). Being disadvantaged on this point can be devastating.

2) How was the weather during the battle? If it's rainy and/or during the night then the Japanese battleships might have managed to get close and slaughter your defenseless carriers. This is more likely if that superstack is led by someone like Yamamoto, who has the traits and skills to stand up to your best naval leaders. Late war carriers are fast and deadly enough to overcome major disadvantages but earlier models -- especially if it's very early like a great war model or something -- may not. If the big guns got close your CTFs are dead.

3) Bigger numbers probably have played to their advantage. All ships have equal hitpoints ("strength") so even if their fleet is less "optimal" than yours your carriers might have been unable to kill them fast enough. For that matter, how many carriers did you face?

4) Light carriers in the latest Armageddon patch (beta 1.3b or something) are no longer as powerful as they were in Doomsday, so they are just damage soak for your CTFs, though they are still useful for your SAGs. Apparently back in Doomsday they helped "teleport" a fleet to capital ship firing range -- which means SAGs ruled the seas since the main advantage of carriers, range, was rendered irrelevant. Don't quote me on that though since I'm still not sure how it really worked.

If you're playing earlier patch versions this might explain what happened to you. If it's the latest patch then you probably didn't really need those CVLs (though they did no harm either).

5) Or it might just be plain dumb luck. Consider it your in-game version of the Pearl Harbor disaster.

 

[unmerged(144541)]

2 large/modern CTFs (6 CVs, 2 CVLs, 10 DDs)

1 large/modern SAG (6 SHBBs, 2 CVLs, 10 DDs)

several smaller SAGS and a couple smaller CTFs made with the ships the USA starts with... these are like 6 and 12 stacks made of the right proportion of capitals to screen, intended to use them to do stuff like mess with italy or unescorted transports or just whatever

anyways so its january 1942, japan just declared war on me.. I move a CTF and the SAG out near the philipines... suddenly my CTF (led by Nimitz) runs into a 30 stack japanese fleet and literally gets annihilated almost instantly. 1 CA makes it out

So uhm....what do I do? I mean even assuming I go back several months or something and reorganize before the war... according to the wiki this is the most effective CTF setup? How do I manage to not get annihilated?[/QUOTE]

Okay I play as Japan alot, I love the naval action and with Germany, lets face it there is not much of Navy until after the Ground War has been accomplished.

I find that the setup for CTF's has to change. I also tried to make this find of setup when reading strategies about Naval warfare. But I got blown out of the water by the US. I find that if you do NOT have any large surface Capital Ships (BB, BC, CA, SHBB) with your Carriers you run the risk of surprise assaults when your CTF's are at manuevers. It happened to me. I had a fleet consisting of 5 CV's, 7 CL's, and 7 DD's and they were all sent to the bottom. If at any time your carriers become too close (RANGE) to the Japanese surface fleet, there done because they will not be able to escape or gain distance before the shells rain down on them. Also if you are caught in bad weather during a naval battle, your planes are severly diminished as an attacking/defending force. SO it is nice to have those large guns there just for support, just in case.

Don't get me wrong, you can go back to the original setup after you have taken the war to the Japanese and diminished their surface fleet.

Another good strategy is the use of the Air cover to find those large Japanese Surface fleets that patrol around the Phillippines. After you find them, you can tell in the general direction they are travelling so you can ignore them or bypass them altogether.

However, if the Japanese have 80% of their surface fleet in one Stack then you have an opportunity to destroy the Japanese main fleet in on shot. Use your Carriers as bait to draw out the Japanese from the Phillippines, then have your entire Pacific seas fleet in the next sea zone behind your carriers. When the Japenese attack (which they will do when they see American Aircraft Carriers) retreat right away back to the sea zone where the rest of your navy is waiting, the Japanese will sail right into it and you will have a Battle of Jutland (Pacific Style).

I don't know if that helps you at at ALL!

 

[Katarian]

Japan might be a long way ahead in doctrines, they also get a big bonus from the Pearl Harbour event (look it up on wiki).

I'd also try to up the number of ships in your main fleets. The primer assumes you are using 18 ships, but I'd use at least 24 (as the US I'd try to use 30 as you can afford to build more ships) to fight the Japanese at the start. Mainly because as you have found out they will run around with a powerful full stack of ships, once you've destroyed a few of their carriers you can try using 18 ship fleets again.

 

[inselkammer]

i am also no naval expert, but i usually dont have a problem with the japanese. what i usually do is to create one uberstack of 8 carriers 4 SHBB 9 CL and 9 DD. all SHBB equipped with every possible attachment, the CLs with Radar and AA and the DD with SW. with that stack i hunt the japanese main fleet and try to get it into the range of my naval bombers as well. as soon as the fleets meet i order the naval bombers to attack and the combination of my 30 fleet ship with naval bombers usually takes down a lot of their CVs. after you have done this a few times, the japanese fleet should not be a problem anymore.

 

[unmerged(42723)]

Right after the war starts there's the pearl harbour event giving Japan several bonuses:

command = { type = ambush value = 30 }
command = { type = surprise which = land value = 20 }
command = { type = surprise which = air value = 40 }
command = { type = surprise which = naval value = 40 }

It's supposed to get deactivated later again in the "The enemy recovers" event, but sometimes it takes ages to fire. Maybe it's still active in your game?

That said with good doctrines and leaders large Japanese CTFs are always dangerous. I once had a battle where both the Japanese and my own USN CTF lost all CVs and only the screens survived

 

[son of liberty]

What version are you playing? Arm 1.2 and Arm 1.3 beta are practically different games entirely when it comes to naval warfare.

 

[unmerged(47610)]

I'm playing 1.2... I guess I should upgrade to 1.3

as for doctrines, I have every pre-req for Massive Strike, but I don't have Massive Strike yet since its a 1943 tech and its january 1942, I was going to start researching it next... is this the problem? I mean thats a pretty advanced doctrine

the fleet that annihilated me was mostly carriers for its capitals, but I think it was a couple of battleships too... but mostly carriers.. I don't remember the exact number but I bet there was 10 carriers in the stack.. maybe more. my intelligence says they have 12, so they might have had all 12 there

think the solution is just to make a 30 ship fleet? maybe mix my CTF and SAG together into 1 30 stack and roam with that and try to get them?

Nimitz is the best leader right? he has alot of traits. I have King on the other CTF, I could switch them... I have 1 CTF and the SAG in the pacific, along with a bunch of smaller fleets, and the other CTF (w/ King) in the atlantic

edit: ok I just loaded up the game and did it again and here's what happened... I ran into ~60~ ships! two 30 stacks! both seemed to be a mix of carriers and battleship types... total annihilation of my CTF again and didnt sink a single one of their ships. Weather was great, my ships "combat effectiveness" was like 107% to their 70%ish, positioning was about the same, 75% each or so...

then I ran my SAG into one of the 30 stacks.. it was 5 carriers, about 8 battleships, and 3 CVLs, rest screens... total annihilation of my SAG and I sunk 1 of their screens

I guess its just a number of ships thing? or maybe its the pearl harbor event and I need to just avoid combat for quite a while until that ends or something? this fights are extremely 1 sided, its not even close.. just a total crushing

 

[Ovg]

AFAIK you could try putting all your fleets into a monster stack.

 

[unmerged(144541)]

AFAIK you could try putting all your fleets into a monster stack.

What does AFAIK stand for?

Meridian6644 - It might not be a good idea to sit back and wait for the "enemy recovers event" to fire. I am not sure what needs to happen for that to fire, but when I play Japan, I find that the more you push in the pacific (the more ships I sink and the more US Islands I can grab quickly) seems to make that event prolong itself. I don't know if this is accurate or not. But I was playing once, DoW in 41' and the "enemy recovers event" did not fire until late 44' after I took all the Pacific and was threatening the Panama Canal. So I am not sure how to handle your situation.

Also just a side note, did your fleet arrive in daylight or at night. I always make sure that my fleet arrives in a hostile sea at night. The ships will not enter combat until daylight (most times) and this may provide the extra advantage as your ships will have time to from a battle line, instead of just entering a firing range. I am not sure if this actually makes a difference. But I found that the Japanese fleets did much better when they arrived at night and then entered the fight in the day.

 

[KevinG]

Night time and weather do not have any effect on whether a SAG will close on a CTF. Even though it might say that in the naval primer I've never seen anyone confirm it and in all my years of playing HOI2 this has never happened. If this were true then if a CTF engaged a SAG then the SAG would always catch up when it turns night time but this obviously isn't the case. Your ONLY problem seems to be the fact that you are playing 1.2 You should have said that earlier because in 1.2 SAGs will 100% close in on CTFs in every battle as long as they have a CVL.

 

[unmerged(144541)]

Night time and weather do not have any effect on whether a SAG will close on a CTF. Even though it might say that in the naval primer I've never seen anyone confirm it and in all my years of playing HOI2 this has never happened. If this were true then if a CTF engaged a SAG then the SAG would always catch up when it turns night time but this obviously isn't the case. Your ONLY problem seems to be the fact that you are playing 1.2 You should have said that earlier because in 1.2 SAGs will 100% close in on CTFs in every battle as long as they have a CVL.

I have a question then, why is then that when I place a fleet in a sea zone with hostile fleets at night, they never engage until it is light out? NEVER! but if I move my fleet in during the day they attack right away or sometimes are attacked right away by the hostile fleet in that sea zone? I am little confused now!

 

[KevinG]

I have a question then, why is then that when I place a fleet in a sea zone with hostile fleets at night, they never engage until it is light out? NEVER! but if I move my fleet in during the day they attack right away or sometimes are attacked right away by the hostile fleet in that sea zone? I am little confused now!

I never said anything about detection values, I said that night time doesn't add a bonus to your SAGs closing in on CTFs. It might be a tiny bonus that's so small I never noticed it, but it's definitely not enough to overcome even a single leader point skill. Whenever I'm Japan or USA and I have a CTF with the latest doctrines under Nimitz or Yamamoto I've never had a SAG close in on it.

 

[ALordaB]

What does AFAIK stand for?

AFAIK = As far as I know.

 

[unmerged(144541)]

I never said anything about detection values, I said that night time doesn't add a bonus to your SAGs closing in on CTFs. It might be a tiny bonus that's so small I never noticed it, but it's definitely not enough to overcome even a single leader point skill. Whenever I'm Japan or USA and I have a CTF with the latest doctrines under Nimitz or Yamamoto I've never had a SAG close in on it.

Then why does it happen. It happened to me as Japan against a US fleet and it happened to meridian6644 when he was playing as US. There has to be some reason why those ships were able to close in on the carriers even though the carriers always want to stay at a far. What happens when you move your fleet into a sea zone that is already occupied by the enemy and waiting for you. I know it depends on detection values, but can a fleet meet an enemy fleet without detecting it, so that when the battle begins the ships are already in close range?

 

[unmerged(47610)]

Night time and weather do not have any effect on whether a SAG will close on a CTF. Even though it might say that in the naval primer I've never seen anyone confirm it and in all my years of playing HOI2 this has never happened. If this were true then if a CTF engaged a SAG then the SAG would always catch up when it turns night time but this obviously isn't the case. Your ONLY problem seems to be the fact that you are playing 1.2 You should have said that earlier because in 1.2 SAGs will 100% close in on CTFs in every battle as long as they have a CVL.

so if I upgrade to 1.3 I should do a little better in these fights?

BTW my SAG has CVLs and it got crushed by their fleet, but they arent running CTFs/SAGs they are running a 30 stack with both BBs and CVs

EDIT: OK so I just upgraded to 1.3b and same result, crushed again. I'm going to try stacking up I guess

 

[unmerged(144541)]

Night time and weather do not have any effect on whether a SAG will close on a CTF. Even though it might say that in the naval primer I've never seen anyone confirm it and in all my years of playing HOI2 this has never happened. If this were true then if a CTF engaged a SAG then the SAG would always catch up when it turns night time but this obviously isn't the case. Your ONLY problem seems to be the fact that you are playing 1.2 You should have said that earlier because in 1.2 SAGs will 100% close in on CTFs in every battle as long as they have a CVL.

BTW my fleet consisted of 5 CV's and 7 CL's and 10 DD's and they were able to close and destroy the whole fleet in one battle. The range was 24 km during the entire battle and I did not have a CVL and neither did the US. The US had 4 CV's and a bunch of BB's, BC's, and CA's. Can't remember how much they had in total.

 

[KevinG]

Then why does it happen. It happened to me as Japan against a US fleet and it happened to meridian6644 when he was playing as US. There has to be some reason why those ships were able to close in on the carriers even though the carriers always want to stay at a far. What happens when you move your fleet into a sea zone that is already occupied by the enemy and waiting for you. I know it depends on detection values, but can a fleet meet an enemy fleet without detecting it, so that when the battle begins the ships are already in close range?

It's already been answered several times in this topic and I clearly told you how to fix it. Upgrade to 1.3.

so if I upgrade to 1.3 I should do a little better in these fights?

BTW my SAG has CVLs and it got crushed by their fleet, but they arent running CTFs/SAGs they are running a 30 stack with both BBs and CVs

You should dominate those fights if you upgrade to 1.3. The reason your SAG with CVLs is losing to their 30 stack BB fleet is.... surprise surprise.... they have more ships than you. It has nothing to do with mixing CVs with their BBs. They simply have more firepower than you do so you will always lose to that 30 stack fleet unless you bring more than 18 ships to bear on them. There is no bonus in HOI2 for mixing different ships together except for the screening bonus you get from having equal ratios of capitals to screens.

BTW my fleet consisted of 5 CV's and 7 CL's and 10 DD's and they were able to close and destroy the whole fleet in one battle. The range was 24 km during the entire battle and I did not have a CVL and neither did the US. The US had 4 CV's and a bunch of BB's, BC's, and CA's. Can't remember how much they had in total.

Your 5 CVs closed in to 24k on their own and fought a 30 ship US fleet full of BBs BCs CAs and won? Really do not believe that your CVs chose to go to 24k because that's impossible. What happened is that the US fleet with CVLs teleported their BBs to within range of your carriers. As for your 5 CVs beating a 30 ship fleet full of BBs BCs and CAs that managed to close in... don't think that's possible either unless they friendly fired each other to death.

 

[unmerged(144541)]

It's already been answered several times in this topic and I clearly told you how to fix it. Upgrade to 1.3.

Your 5 CVs closed in to 24k on their own and fought a 30 ship US fleet full of BBs BCs CAs and won? Really do not believe that your CVs chose to go to 24k because that's impossible. What happened is that the US fleet with CVLs teleported their BBs to within range of your carriers. As for your 5 CVs beating a 30 ship fleet full of BBs BCs and CAs that managed to close in... don't think that's possible either unless they friendly fired each other to death.

First of all I have version 1.3 and second of all the battle began at the range I already specified. No one closed on anyone. It opened at 24KM and finished at 24KM. WHAT I want to know is it possible for two fleets to not detect each other until they are already on top of each other, making the range at the beginning of the battle very close to begin with. Therefore giving full advantage to the big guns of the BB's.

BTW my fleet was destroyed not the other way around!