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We already regressed to an extent due to monarch points. Why regress changes that were actually good? Right now you need solid investment for conversion to keep up with expansion pace, depending on where you are the amount of investment varies. Enough of the game is overly dependent on chance already. Adding noise to the importance of player decisions by making those decisions randomly matter more or less is no an inherently superior abstraction to a more deterministic model.
Well, you would still need solid investment. And convertion chance could be increased by different things like tolerance (for example: lower tolerance, higher chance to convert with higher revolt risk), missionary maintenance, events which increase or decrease chance. It would not be as random.
 

LastSalian

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We already regressed to an extent due to monarch points. Why regress changes that were actually good? Right now you need solid investment for conversion to keep up with expansion pace, depending on where you are the amount of investment varies. Enough of the game is overly dependent on chance already. Adding noise to the importance of player decisions by making those decisions randomly matter more or less is no an inherently superior abstraction to a more deterministic model.
And, BTW, tendency, for any MP-oriented game, is to remove RNG, so skillfulness is more important than luck.
 

TheMeInTeam

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And, BTW, tendency, for any MP-oriented game, is to remove RNG, so skillfulness is more important than luck.

At least ideally. Some developers of MP-first games understand this better than others. The outcome of a game of Madden between two players who are similarly skilled is more random than the outcome of a war in this game, but games like Gears of War 3 or StarCraft 2 have virtually no RNG at all or severely limit it.
 

Squirrelloid

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I think Missionaries should have a "catastrophic failure" chance in converting a province. Meaning, if the failure occurs, the missionary work will collapse and militant religiousness in the province would make further efforts futile for a certain period of time. Additionally, a big rebel army will spawn, requiring you to put it down. Catastrophic failure chance would be affected by at least the following factors:

1. Geography. Deserts, mountains and other such harsh terrain types would make the province more resistant to conversion as the infidels have more places to hide and live differently from your imposed religious norms.
2. Provinces that are "core" to the religion would be more resistant as well. Hinduism would be harder to stamp out in India than in Persia. Islam would be harder to stamp out in Arabia, while converting Andalusia would be easier.
3. Culture. Certain cultures would be much more attached to one type of religion than another. Greeks would be harder to turn away from Orthodoxy. Arabs would be harder to turn away from Islam. Punjabis would be harder to turn away from Hinduism. etc

Also, the amount of missionaries should be reduced.

There is a catastrophic failure event. It gives -10% missionary strength. (Actually, there are several, some have options which avoid the catastrophe, but there's at least one that kills future missionary progress for ~10 years with no avoidance possible).
 

DGuller

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One point I do agree with: converting is currently something you almost always just do when possible. There's no real thought involved.

How to fix that, I don't really know.
Permanent reduction to base tax from conversion would balance it out quite nicely. Then you'll have a choice between being a stable backwater or a rich but potentially volatile heterogeneous empire.
 

Fishman786

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There is a balance to be struck. There is a reason why online poker is more popular than online chess.
Because poker is played by sexy rich people who are brilliant and wild enough to throw all reason to the wind for the big win, whilst chess is played by nerdy people who spend ages deliberating their decisions and being pedantic.

At least in the advertising world, that is. Run a Google image search for 'chess club' and 'poker club' and see what comes up... :p
 

TheMeInTeam

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There is a balance to be struck. There is a reason why online poker is more popular than online chess.

Poker is not random in the traditional sense. You are making decisions with incomplete information, but it's not like the value of your bet is forced up or down randomly. Having your bets randomized in varying capacities is a good analogy to what EU IV and many other MP games do that they shouldn't be doing. The probabilities of the cards is a known quantity and you make odds-based decisions given other factors. The name of that game is specifically to manage those decisions. However, if the game made your decisions less important, by randomly altering your bets or forcing you to fold regardless of your hand, then you'd have a situation comparable to monarch points/other EU nonsense.

If you bet up on the better hand than your opponent, you will always win in poker, but sometimes your opponent outplays you and you get caught making a bad decision due to incomplete information/misreading. That outcome is very different from losing money at random or randomly being unable to play certain hands.
 

Zander

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Poker absolutely makes your decisions less important, by introducing semi-random card draws. I don't really see how you can claim otherwise.

Yes, there are parts of EU that are more random (and parts that are less random). But getting a bad hand is actually pretty similar to getting a bad monarch: you can calculate exactly how many MP you're going to get per month/year as long as that monarch is alive.
 

ChildeR

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And, BTW, tendency, for any MP-oriented game, is to remove RNG, so skillfulness is more important than luck.
That can't work in EU4 and shouldn't be a goal. Starting positions and different tags are (intentionally) of differing difficulty and power level, so randomness is necessary for being able to enjoy them all.

A healthy amount of randomness balanced with some predictability so your choices have meaning, that's the recipe for this kind of a game. If anything, EU4 is too far towards predictable in general, though some areas of course could do with less randomness too.

(Also, the more casual a game's intended audience, the more randomness it needs to level the playing field between players of different strengths.)
 

TheMeInTeam

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Poker absolutely makes your decisions less important, by introducing semi-random card draws. I don't really see how you can claim otherwise.

Yes, there are parts of EU that are more random (and parts that are less random). But getting a bad hand is actually pretty similar to getting a bad monarch: you can calculate exactly how many MP you're going to get per month/year as long as that monarch is alive.

Yeah, I didn't articulate my thought well at all. You are right of course, but Poker does not introduce further randomness on top of the randomness. The ante lost from not playing a bad hand is typically nowhere near as decisive as a bad monarch in the first 50-80 years, but randomly being forced to bet on it would be. IMO hands are more comparable to battle RNG; they can screw you, but if you're playing over a decent period they're not usually what does.

That can't work in EU4 and shouldn't be a goal. Starting positions and different tags are (intentionally) of differing difficulty and power level, so randomness is necessary for being able to enjoy them all.

Quoted statement lacks logical cohesion. Balance and difficulty are not necessarily related to randomness or outcome-dependence-on-randomness in any capacity. Making a true but irrelevant statement and then a conclusion based on it that said statement does not support is a fallacy.

(Also, the more casual a game's intended audience, the more randomness it needs to level the playing field between players of different strengths.)

Once upon a time, having the player that plays better win most of the time was a good thing. There is some variance in a given person's play quality game-to-game, it is this, and not game RNG, that should be influencing the outcome more.

Flagrant skill equalization rarely contributes anything of significance. EU would cater itself to a casual audience a lot better simply by avoiding lying to players and hiding game mechanics PLUS hiding changes to said game mechanics (all while being arrogant about doing so). No amount of built-in RNG skill equalization could possibly match fixing those glaring flaws when it comes to leveling the playing field and helping casual players. Casual players don't even know the rules to this game, and can't expected to know them. The in-game UI and patch notes both lie about them after all, or greatly mislead (there's a bit of both). Before we even think about introducing blue-shell type mechanics into the game, getting it out of "I wanna be the guy" territory would do much more to level the playing field.
 

ChildeR

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Quoted statement lacks logical cohesion. Balance and difficulty are not necessarily related to randomness or outcome-dependence-on-randomness in any capacity. Making a true but irrelevant statement and then a conclusion based on it that said statement does not support is a fallacy.
Ok, I'll attempt to rephrase: There are tags/starts that are vastly easier than others. If two players of equal strength start from two such different starts, they must still have an enjoyable game. Randomness is a good way to reduce the importance of the initial situation. Also the current situation, if one pulls ahead later in the game.

Once upon a time, having the player that plays better win most of the time was a good thing.
That's fine for a competitive game. I don't want to play EU4 competitively, just enjoy it either in SP or MP with friends. Optimally there is no winning at all.

(This is very off topic though...)
 
Last edited:

Outrider

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We should also rename the game to Monarch Universalis Points.

+1.

Resources in Age of Empires: Food, Stone, Wood, Gold.
Resources in Starcraft: Minerals and Gas.
Resources in Warcraft 3: Gold and Wood.

For a segment of the EU4 Player base:

Maximum Resources in EU4: AMP, DIP, MIL.

Because complex resource management is difficult I guess.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Ok, I'll attempt to rephrase: There are tags/starts that are vastly easier than others. If two players of equal strength start from two such different starts, they must still have an enjoyable game. Randomness is a good way to reduce the importance of the initial situation. Also the current situation, if one pulls ahead later in the game.

Only the most broken, game-ending events could cover the disparity between France and Serbia. If you want an equalizer, the answer is in diplomacy, not random events which can (and often will) screw over Serbia just as often as France, if not more often. France will never get an individual province revolt larger than its FL; smaller nations can have this happen before they finish fabricating their first claim via some garbage like "large revolt", which can 1-shot certain starts like Knights or Arakan outright.

Maximum Resources in EU4: AMP, DIP, MIL.

These don't belong in the same breath or even the same line of thought as the others. Those other resources are extremely...in some cases nigh-solely...dependent on player choices (AoE has some randomness to it, but still far less than monarch points). Those other resources can actually be managed without random screw jobs. Comparing them to monarch points is an insult to them :p.
 
Last edited:

Chieron

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This was exactly the system that was used in EUIII (introduced after a few patches to replace the system I mentioned earlier) in fact. A missionary would sit in a province and would have a yearly chance at converting it. In theory the missionary could sit there until the end of the game. But it usually took somewhere between five and twenty years to do.
The EU3 way cumbersome with sending in new missionaries everytime you got one, hoping that he would luck on that 3% chance half a year later.. much like the colonization.

Maybe looking at the EU4 colonist gives a better solution: A missionary founds a 'religious colony' that grows over time while he is present.
Events and modifiers then can affect this growth and progress.
Higher basetax/ conversion resistance is like harsh climate, slowing down conversion.
Missionaries in higher basetax provinces should then be more expensive, too.
When the 'colony' is finished, the province will be converted.

This would work better with nonbinary religions makeup of provinces, though (i.e. province may be 50% Catholic, 40%Protestant, 10%Reformed, not just Catholic). Then, the missionary shifts around these values. And they may slowly change by themselves, too - like a tendency to become a monoreligious province (dominant religion grows slightly faster), bonus to state religion (slight increase) and Europe-wide bonus during reformation for Protestant/Reformed.
Tolerance and tolerance effects could then be calculated as the average tolerance weighted by prevalence.
 

Kalderus

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To introduce some real decision-making to the game. Limited budgets make for interesting tough choices.


Here's an interesting tough choice: "Can I convert the provinces in my nation or not?"

Interesting Tough Answer: "Nope, sorry, you're playing in the ROTW. You need those points for tech."