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ChildeR

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You build armies and conquer stuff when possible too. You keep relations improved when possible, and hire advisors when possible.
All of those have an opportunity cost and/or a choice involved. You build armies when you have the money (and will need them soon) *and* don't need the money for anything else *and* even then you get to choose what troops to build and where. With relations improvement and especially advisors there are also such choices.

With conversion there's the order in which you convert if you conquered many provinces, but that's about it.
 

Sabotage13

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You build armies and conquer stuff when possible too. You keep relations improved when possible, and hire advisors when possible.

There's a downside to all of those, armies and advisors cost a lot of money, and you have limited pool of diplomats. You rarely need more than 2 missionaries though, and there is really not much of a cost involved in conversion.
 

dharper

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You build armies and conquer stuff when possible too. You keep relations improved when possible, and hire advisors when possible.
But historically there were cases in which countries failed to convert their people for decades or centuries. The Mughals in India. The Timurids in Persia. The French (at least for a long time) in northern France. The Spanish in the Netherlands.

In EU4, failing to convert your provinces ASAP is just playing badly - there's really no reason not to convert.

If we get a situation in which it's never a good idea to (or at least, never ends up in the situation of) follow a historical pattern, then there may be something wrong with the game.
 

Outrider

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All of those have an opportunity cost and/or a choice involved. You build armies when you have the money (and will need them soon) *and* don't need the money for anything else *and* even then you get to choose what troops to build and where. With relations improvement and especially advisors there are also such choices.

With conversion there's the order in which you convert if you conquered many provinces, but that's about it.

That's absurd. There is lots of opportunity costs associated with conversion. Unless your sitting around in western europe converting between catholic/protestant/reformed (and even then base + free decisions don't go that far), you will need to spend time/resources acquiring additional missionaries and conversion strength.
 

TheMeInTeam

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There's a downside to all of those, armies and advisors cost a lot of money, and you have limited pool of diplomats. You rarely need more than 2 missionaries though, and there is really not much of a cost involved in conversion.

Conversion costs money. If you're playing a weak nation, it matters. Also, the rate at which you can convert for most nations is a piss poor joke, excepting hand-holding Christianity or munchkin versions of Hindu/Sikh that take decisions for both. To actually convert at anywhere near the rate of conquest, you must invest monarch points into additional strength and missionaries, or take decisions that add revolt risk or come with other negatives.

In other words, attaining 100% unity has an opportunity cost/choice involved as well, not to mention the ability for some nations to have 100% unity without bothering to convert.
 

FrosT37

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This wouldn't work either it make it near impossible or very hard to convert higher base tax provinces, especially no-accepted culture provinces, and thats not taking into account negative conversion modifiers for orthodox, Sunni, Coptic etc.
Why should you be allowed to convert everything?
 

Silmarion

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Why should you be allowed to convert everything?
Because the alternative is that a human player will always take humanism, and never be bothered about conversion at all, while AI countries, having preselected idea groups, will not, thus being forced to choose between teching up and having a functioning country, thereby making the game even more skewed towards the player than it is already. That, or every country is hard coded to take humanism, which is far more ahistoric than the conversions are.
 

Qoff

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Since EUIV and the change to the power point system, there is only one holdover from the old "wait x months" style from previous games, and that's missionaries. I believe that currently there is no downside (other than possible revolts) from sending missionaries to convert provinces, so everyone does and everyone tries to convert all their provinces to their religion, and you can usually do this in a few decades.

Historically speaking, countries took hundreds of years to become religiously homogeneous and this effort took valuable resources away from other pursuits that were quite honestly more worthwhile. I would like to propose the following:

Remove the Missionary system, instead people spend both ADM and MIL power to convert provinces, the same amount that you would need to spend to core said province (unmodified) from both ADM and MIL, so for a 2 tax base province, 40 ADM and 40 MIL, and it takes as long as culture change does. In exchange, the economic penalties for wrong religion are removed entirely, but the revolt risk and religious unity penalties to stability remain in place. I would actually argue that wrong culture economic penalties should also be removed but a "cultural unity" penalty to stability be added for every non-accepted culture province.

Owning Mecca or other holy places should give extra legitimacy (+0.1) instead of additional missionaries. Missionary Schools and Spanish/Holy traditions should both lower the cost to convert Heathens by 20% (so Spain with Missionary Schools can convert heathens for 40% off). The Inquisition idea gives a 20% discount in converting Heretics. Inquisitor advisers give an additional 10% discount against both heretics and heathens.

Some religions are harder to convert, for instance Muslims and Christians have a 100% conversion cost against other religious groups, due to the treatment of apostasy. Unorganized religions like the north American pagan religions have a -40% discount. So the same aforementioned Spanish can convert an 8 base tax Aztec province for 32 ADM/32 MIL, but to convert an 8 base tax Dutch province costs 320 ADM / 320 MIL.

Religious Zeal would add an additional 100% penalty (so if the aforementioned Dutch province is newly Reformed, make that 640 ADM / 640 MIL).

I would also like to propose that any nation can request that another nation convert to their religion, if they are in the same religious group. This request is easier the more provinces they have that are your religion, how strong you are compared to them base tax and militarily, whether you have an alliance, royal marriage, are a vassal or in a personal union with you etc.

The bonus on converting to a Protestant denomination would give a 60% discount on converting Heretic provinces (so if you also have religious ideas and an Inquisitor, possibly 90% off conversion costs until it expires).

This proposal would balance the current situation. Right now there is very little incentive not to just convert everything. With this change, going for Humanist ideas for that 25% religious unity bonus to tolerate your sizeable heretic population would be more worthwhile than trying to convert them.

De Heretico Comburendo Act, Advancement of Religion Act, etc should instead of adding missionary strength, instead increase the tolerance of own religion by +1.

Bear-how-about-no.jpg


MP to convert provinces would be the worst thing that they could change about religion. When you say such nonsense you're talking only in countries with good technology, countries in Asia or the Americas would suffer a lot due this mechanic. The MP system is already something that limit the game, we don't need something to limit the things even more.
 

LastSalian

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How about 10 mil MP to build a regiment, 1 mil MP of maintenance per 1 regiment?

Building and maintaining armies effort took valuable resources away from other pursuits that were quite honestly more worthwhile.
 

Mad King James

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All the arguments I'm hearing just reinforce my argument. Yes it would make conversion harder (that's the point) yes non-European countries who want to convert lots of provinces would now have to give up tech advancement if they want to do that (can you name me an Asian country that converted lots of provinces to their religion in this period? Even the Ottomans barely converted anybody in reality, Greece remained overwhelmingly Orthodox into the 19th century).

Yes countries who for various reasons want to convert lots of provinces will end up behind their neighbors (This happened! Countries that joined the Inquisition ended up technologically behind the countries pursuing religious freedom).

As for humanism being better for tech development, this is also reality.
 

Freudia

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All the arguments I'm hearing just reinforce my argument. Yes it would make conversion harder (that's the point) yes non-European countries who want to convert lots of provinces would now have to give up tech advancement if they want to do that (can you name me an Asian country that converted lots of provinces to their religion in this period? Even the Ottomans barely converted anybody in reality, Greece remained overwhelmingly Orthodox into the 19th century).

Yes countries who for various reasons want to convert lots of provinces will end up behind their neighbors (This happened! Countries that joined the Inquisition ended up technologically behind the countries pursuing religious freedom).

Gameplay mechanics do not allow leaving a large majority of your provinces the wrong religion without going out of your way to stack tolerance bonuses (and even then those get capped at +3 for heretics/heathens). That's why you need to be able to convert things with low opportunity cost.

Especially with the Reformation hot potato and that Humanism event converting provinces at random.
 

myrsl0ken

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To those stating that other arbitrary things in the game also don't cost MP: considering how strikingly similar religious conversion is to coring and culture conversion, isn't the idea of treating them alike appealing?
 

Mad King James

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Gameplay mechanics do not allow leaving a large majority of your provinces the wrong religion without going out of your way to stack tolerance bonuses (and even then those get capped at +3 for heretics/heathens). That's why you need to be able to convert things with low opportunity cost.

Especially with the Reformation hot potato and that Humanism event converting provinces at random.

IMO this is working as designed, the Reformation was the most destabilizing event in European history, yet in-game the upheavals are usually done with in a few decades.
The Religious Turmoil event would have to be nerfed to correspond with the increased difficulty of converting provinces.
 

AurochsAway

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All the arguments I'm hearing just reinforce my argument. Yes it would make conversion harder (that's the point) yes non-European countries who want to convert lots of provinces would now have to give up tech advancement if they want to do that (can you name me an Asian country that converted lots of provinces to their religion in this period? Even the Ottomans barely converted anybody in reality, Greece remained overwhelmingly Orthodox into the 19th century).

Yes countries who for various reasons want to convert lots of provinces will end up behind their neighbors (This happened! Countries that joined the Inquisition ended up technologically behind the countries pursuing religious freedom).

As for humanism being better for tech development, this is also reality.

You're taking away the Pros yes, but your idea just makes the whole thing one giant Con. It's suicide to give up mil tech. What this change would achieve in effect is confining conquests within religious groups, as anything outside the religious group would just revolt back to another country.
 

Freudia

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IMO this is working as designed, the Reformation was the most destabilizing event in European history, yet in-game the upheavals are usually done with in a few decades.

This sort of destabilization that the player has no control over doesn't translate well into a game where you play the role of an omniscient entity that guides a nation for approximately 380 years. Making conversion unreasonably expensive will result in, as someone said earlier, everyone just taking Humanism. It'll really shaft the AI while forcing a certain idea group to be taken each and every game regardless of what nation in Europe you pick. It's just a bad suggestion in general.
 

TheMeInTeam

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All the arguments I'm hearing just reinforce my argument. Yes it would make conversion harder (that's the point) yes non-European countries who want to convert lots of provinces would now have to give up tech advancement if they want to do that (can you name me an Asian country that converted lots of provinces to their religion in this period? Even the Ottomans barely converted anybody in reality, Greece remained overwhelmingly Orthodox into the 19th century).

Yes countries who for various reasons want to convert lots of provinces will end up behind their neighbors (This happened! Countries that joined the Inquisition ended up technologically behind the countries pursuing religious freedom).

As for humanism being better for tech development, this is also reality.

That's easy to say, the only caveat being you simply avoid actually reading opposing arguments.

Unfortunately, that fits right in here.
 

kenup

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All the arguments I'm hearing just reinforce my argument. Yes it would make conversion harder (that's the point) yes non-European countries who want to convert lots of provinces would now have to give up tech advancement if they want to do that (can you name me an Asian country that converted lots of provinces to their religion in this period? Even the Ottomans barely converted anybody in reality, Greece remained overwhelmingly Orthodox into the 19th century).

Yes countries who for various reasons want to convert lots of provinces will end up behind their neighbors (This happened! Countries that joined the Inquisition ended up technologically behind the countries pursuing religious freedom).

As for humanism being better for tech development, this is also reality.
It wouldn't make it just harder, it would make it not worthwhile, at all. Basically an entire system would be pointless. And forcing another idea group on the players on top of pretty much Offensive at the moment, would not help the game.

Also, most countries were hardly humanist in this period. The European countries just decided to take advantage of whatever helped them grow.
 

Mad King James

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Because the alternative is that a human player will always take humanism, and never be bothered about conversion at all, while AI countries, having preselected idea groups, will not, thus being forced to choose between teching up and having a functioning country, thereby making the game even more skewed towards the player than it is already. That, or every country is hard coded to take humanism, which is far more ahistoric than the conversions are.

Not necessarily, if your nation is compact then converting your provinces would be cheaper than getting humanism, as humanism costs many thousands of ADM points that a compact nation with few minorities wouldn't need the ideas for (either all the cultures are accepted or very few provinces are heretic). Countries like the Netherlands or Denmark for instance. If you did want to convert you can get cheaper conversions with Inquisitors and Religious Ideas and then it won't be so expensive. Spain for instance.

To those stating that other arbitrary things in the game also don't cost MP: considering how strikingly similar religious conversion is to coring and culture conversion, isn't the idea of treating them alike appealing?

Exactly, religious conversion is the one thing you can "change" without having to spend anything other than cash, and not much cash at that.

what you propose would create a vast imbalance towards the larger religions (mostly sunni and catholic). that doesn't seem to be a sensible balance...

Exact opposite is the case. Current situation: wiping out Protestant or Shia is very easy and can be done in a few decades if you control all the provinces.

All of those have an opportunity cost and/or a choice involved. You build armies when you have the money (and will need them soon) *and* don't need the money for anything else *and* even then you get to choose what troops to build and where. With relations improvement and especially advisors there are also such choices.

With conversion there's the order in which you convert if you conquered many provinces, but that's about it.

Yes exactly! I had a game going recently where I have convered about half of Germany to reformed (I am the only Reformed nation and the Reformed religion would not exist anymore if I weren't around) and it all took maybe 40 or 50 years. I can convert provinces fast than I can core them. o_O

I CAN CONVERT PROVINCES FASTER THAN I CAN CORE THEM. Think about that for a second. Coring, for me, is painful, but converting the religion of someone I just conquered is a piece of cake. Coring some goddamn Polish province with full noble ideas cost me like 300 ADM a little while ago, but I converted that province in about a year and a half. I don't even have any religious ideas! I just have a couple (not even all) religious decisions, and I can convert anything for basically free.

How is that not screwed up? Talk about religious conversion not being worth it or not being a mechanic, it barely exists at this point. A province that falls into my hands, anywhere in the world, will be non-Reformed for about 6-12 months. That is insane.

The game is supposed to be the exact opposite, the order you are supposed to do things is Core/Convert/Change culture. I usually convert first because it's faster and free. Religions that existed historically for centuries (Copts in Egypt, Christians in Armenia, all of Georgia) are usually extinct after the first 10 years of gameplay. The religious map of Europe becomes completely homogenous within national boundaries by 1600 at the latest. This situation is completely retarded. My proposal would fix this.

Why should you be allowed to convert everything?

Exactly
 
Last edited:

Mad King James

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I added an alternative proposal instead of ADM and MIL together:

If both ADM and MIL is too much, an alternative would perhaps be ADM and money, say 20 ADM and 20 ducats per tax base, or perhaps DIP points? (though ADM is usually associated with religious actions, not DIP)