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Mad King James

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Since EUIV and the change to the power point system, there is only one holdover from the old "wait x months" style from previous games, and that's missionaries. I believe that currently there is no downside (other than possible revolts) from sending missionaries to convert provinces, so everyone does and everyone tries to convert all their provinces to their religion, and you can usually do this in a few decades.

Historically speaking, countries took hundreds of years to become religiously homogeneous and this effort took valuable resources away from other pursuits that were quite honestly more worthwhile. I would like to propose the following:

Remove the Missionary system, instead people spend both ADM and MIL power to convert provinces, the same amount that you would need to spend to core said province (unmodified) from both ADM and MIL, so for a 2 tax base province, 40 ADM and 40 MIL, and it takes as long as culture change does. In exchange, the economic penalties for wrong religion are removed entirely, but the revolt risk and religious unity penalties to stability remain in place. I would actually argue that wrong culture economic penalties should also be removed but a "cultural unity" penalty to stability be added for every non-accepted culture province.

If both ADM and MIL is too much, an alternative would perhaps be ADM and money, say 20 ADM and 20 ducats per tax base, or perhaps DIP points? (though ADM is usually associated with religious actions, not DIP)

Owning Mecca or other holy places should give extra legitimacy (+0.1) instead of additional missionaries. Missionary Schools and Spanish/Holy traditions should both lower the cost to convert Heathens by 20% (so Spain with Missionary Schools can convert heathens for 40% off). The Inquisition idea gives a 20% discount in converting Heretics. Inquisitor advisers give an additional 10% discount against both heretics and heathens.

Some religions are harder to convert, for instance Muslims and Christians have a 100% conversion cost against other religious groups, due to the treatment of apostasy. Unorganized religions like the north American pagan religions have a -40% discount. So the same aforementioned Spanish can convert an 8 base tax Aztec province for 32 ADM/32 MIL, but to convert an 8 base tax Dutch province costs 320 ADM / 320 MIL.

Religious Zeal would add an additional 100% penalty (so if the aforementioned Dutch province is newly Reformed, make that 640 ADM / 640 MIL).

I would also like to propose that any nation can request that another nation convert to their religion, if they are in the same religious group. This request is easier the more provinces they have that are your religion, how strong you are compared to them base tax and militarily, whether you have an alliance, royal marriage, are a vassal or in a personal union with you etc.

The bonus on converting to a Protestant denomination would give a 60% discount on converting Heretic provinces (so if you also have religious ideas and an Inquisitor, possibly 90% off conversion costs until it expires).

This proposal would balance the current situation. Right now there is very little incentive not to just convert everything. With this change, going for Humanist ideas for that 25% religious unity bonus to tolerate your sizeable heretic population would be more worthwhile than trying to convert them.

De Heretico Comburendo Act, Advancement of Religion Act, etc should instead of adding missionary strength, instead increase the tolerance of own religion by +1.
 
Last edited:

Squirrelloid

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No.

MP are limited enough as it is. No more uses unless we get more monarch points, and you're asking for it to cost bucketloads of two different types of monarch points. No one would ever use that. (It would also make the Jihad achievement impossible).

Not sure how this is any different from 'wait x months', you've just changed what you're waiting on, and made it trade off with everything else in the game in a way that doesn't make sense. Monarch points represent your monarch's involvement. I'm pretty sure he isn't involved in converting people.
 

SweetHalcyHS

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On that note, let's get rid of all the diplomats and colonists and everything else in the game while we're at it! Diplomatic actions now cost 25 DIP, while colonies cost 200 ADM! Oh and merchants now cost 5 DIP and 5 ADM per month, but hey, you can spam wherever you like... if you can afford* it that is.

And because waiting's retarded, everything happens at once! No diplomatic cooldowns or stuff like that- converting religions, coring, changing culture and all those shenanigans now happen instantly as long as you can pay*!

*Monarch points only. Take that shitty gold off to somewhere else, scrubs.

**
On a more serious note, you're not being very persuasive unless you manage to argue how, in what effects, would converting missionaries to MP would be better, and how it differs from the "X months to do something" system.
 

Outrider

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Since EUIV and the change to the power point system, there is only one holdover from the old "wait x months" style from previous games, and that's missionaries.

What do you mean? Numerous aspects of the game still have a "wait x months". Some involve MP usage, like Coring and Cultural conversion. Others don't, like improving relations, using colonists, or forging claims.

In exchange, the economic penalties for wrong religion are removed entirely, but the revolt risk and religious unity penalties to stability remain in place.

RR and religious unity, not the piddly -33% tax modifier is why people convert religions. If it only removes the tax modifier, you effectively remove conversion from the game for a rational player.
 

Outrider

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On a more serious note, you're not being very persuasive unless you manage to argue how, in what effects, would converting missionaries to MP would be better, and how it differs from the "X months to do something" system.

Actually, he's still arguing that it should be "X months to do something":

and it takes as long as culture change does.

He just thinks it should cost more monarch points (taking religious ideas, DoF, or Counter-Reformation to convert more effectively does cost you MPs already) and have no benefits.
 

TheAtreides84

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Not sure how this is any different from 'wait x months', you've just changed what you're waiting on, and made it trade off with everything else in the game in a way that doesn't make sense. Monarch points represent your monarch's involvement. I'm pretty sure he isn't involved in converting people.

Is he involved in changing the culture of a province? Doing research? Monarch points just represent the ability of your government to get things done quickly.

OP: In principle, you could convert anything to points... you could convert Total War battles in a series of numerical comparisons, if you wanted to. It's just not very interesting.
 

Mad King James

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Excellent people are freaking out, must be a good proposal :D

And yes monarch points are extremely limited already, so now how worthwhile is it to convert that province? You have to think about it now.

And the very arguments you guys are making against this proposal actually prove how necessary it is. Now instead of always converting everything, you have to weigh the pros and cons.
 

Fionnix

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Don't mean to be offensive but this is the stupidest idea i have ever heard for EU4.

320 mil/adm point for a 8 base tax province thats more than half the cost of a tech if you are western. It would break the game on so many levels, unless they made it so you got like 10 MP a month as default.
 

Mad King James

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Don't mean to be offensive but this is the stupidest idea i have ever heard for EU4.

320 mil/adm point for a 8 base tax province thats more than half the cost of a tech if you are western. It would break the game on so many levels, unless they made it so you got like 10 MP a month as default.

You're missing the point. Historically speaking, at what point did Spain convert Holland back to Catholic? Currently, Spain holding the Netherlands would be stupid to leave the Dutch provinces converting to Reformed. Now, they can either spend all their resources converting the Dutch reformation, or they can leave them.
 

Redwallzyl

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I think it sounds like a great idea. Converting religion should be vary difficult. This whould make it much more realistic and give big advantages to a more tolerant playstyle that are badly needed.
 

lordelenath

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It would increase the difficulty of the game vastly, Humanism probably becoming mandatory. Everybody with a half decent conquest rate (not talking WC or anything close) would be ruining his religious unity within a few decades and never manage to get it back together. And just imagine republics with their stability costs having low religious unity on top of that. It's just WAY to expansive. Everybody who'd want to expand would probably rely even more on vassal feeding, if possible through annex -> release to let them convert your stuff. You can not survive consistently at 50% religious unity, at least not while staying sane and having fun.

You can't just take away the conversions without significantly overhauling tolerance and religious unity. And to be honest I don't see the point of this proposal, especially since it doesn't fix what it should: You want to get rid of "takes X months to finish"-automatisms which this doesn't achieve. You still click a button and wait, the only difference being that you don't use the missionary but those monarch points.
 

FrosT37

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I think the main problems with religious conversion are that the positive modifiers for missionary strength are too high and the missionary maintenance cost is too low.

If you cut the positive modifiers for missionary strength in half and you double the maintenance cost for missionaries, it would make a it much longer and more costly to convert stuff.
 

Fionnix

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I think the main problems with religious conversion are that the positive modifiers for missionary strength are too high and the missionary maintenance cost is too low.

If you cut the positive modifiers for missionary strength in half and you double the maintenance cost for missionaries, it would make a it much longer and more costly to convert stuff.

This wouldn't work either it make it near impossible or very hard to convert higher base tax provinces, especially no-accepted culture provinces, and thats not taking into account negative conversion modifiers for orthodox, Sunni, Coptic etc.

Although I can see where people are coming from in regards to converting the lowlands to catholic, or converting say, mecca to orthodox these could be fixed with events or what not so it makes it more historical. But one of the things that makes the game fun for people is the ability to spread their religion of choice across, the map, for instance my favorite game to date was as byzantiun making the middle east and India orthadox.
 

SweetHalcyHS

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If there is supposed to be any real nerf to religious conversion, then it would be in increased RR. In history, once the rebels could be militarily put down, converting a province was not very difficult. Whether through actual conversion, or through the exile of those who refused to do so.

Like seriously, I hope you people aren't trying to argue that the Netherlands didn't turn Catholic because the Spanish didn't try- because that's exactly what the proposed changes the OP has made will result in.
 

Squirrelloid

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This wouldn't work either it make it near impossible or very hard to convert higher base tax provinces, especially no-accepted culture provinces, and thats not taking into account negative conversion modifiers for orthodox, Sunni, Coptic etc.

Although I can see where people are coming from in regards to converting the lowlands to catholic, or converting say, mecca to orthodox these could be fixed with events or what not so it makes it more historical. But one of the things that makes the game fun for people is the ability to spread their religion of choice across, the map, for instance my favorite game to date was as byzantiun making the middle east and India orthadox.

You know, it wasn't terribly long before the game when the arabs swept half the known world and converted them to islam. It was less than two centuries before game start when entire steppe tribes converted to islam en-masse. Arguably, the game doesn't let you convert *fast enough*. The issues with conversion time being too fast are entirely unique to christianity, based on structural issues like Rome being a control freak, and using that as a basis to punish the rest of the world on conversion speed is ludicrous.

And if converting provinces cost several hundred ADM points, no one would do it. At all. And then we'd be stuck to playing within same-religion areas so we didn't tank our religious unity, and the reformation would destroy countries. All of Europe would fall apart into endless religious rebels. You'd literally break the game for no good purpose.
 

myrsl0ken

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The proposed numbers are obiously arbitrary and have to be balanced and this would absolutely have cascading effects on many other areas of the game. I'm positive that the OP knows this so it would be nice if people could refrain from arguments like "MP are limited enough as it is" or "this would make humanism broken". Those are details and using them as arguments against the idea is quite frankly derailing.

I think that that idea is not only interesting, it would perfectly mimic how coring and culture converting works in the game. As a new player I was very confounded by this differance!

I think many people here are right, however, in that your proposed numbers are way high and would severely hamper my ability to paint the map to the point that I would be having less fun. How about using your idea (including actual penalties for low cultural unity) but making the total MP cost for coring, converting religion and integrating cultures only a bit higher than what we currently pay and present us with interesting ways to reduce these costs? Humanism for higher unity, admin for lower coring costs and perhaps a military idea for just beating people into submission.
 

TheMeInTeam

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If you can also fix the monarch point idiot system in general OP, then maybe, but also only if you also rebalance ideas.

Without doing something about the luck **** that is one of the game's most crucial resources and is already bad becoming worse, and without altering idea groups such that you've a working model, your suggestion is a no sell that causes a ton or problems without actually fixing any.
 

ChildeR

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One point I do agree with: converting is currently something you almost always just do when possible. There's no real thought involved.

How to fix that, I don't really know.
 

TheMeInTeam

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One point I do agree with: converting is currently something you almost always just do when possible. There's no real thought involved.

How to fix that, I don't really know.

You build armies and conquer stuff when possible too. You keep relations improved when possible, and hire advisors when possible.