Get Danzig ?

[theokrat]

GER offered a ten year-NAP and guarantees if they would only be allowed to have a rail through to Eastern Prussia. This was refused.

Well it was a little more than just a railway. Getting Danzig (that was not Polish at the time but "neutral") and the corridor practically meant that Poland would be landlocked. With no possiblity of Im/Export without the permission of Germany they would practically give up sovereignty. Also Hitler requested them to join the Axis thereby pulling them into a war with the Soviet Union that could only lead to heavy casulties.

After they (understandably) refused to give in these demands in early 39 tensions rose, Hitler chanceled the NAP, Allies decided to GOI and Poland mobilzed. I think this is the point where it was pretty obvious that everyone would go to war.

 

[Federkiel]

Formally Danzig was independent, but the League of Nations did nothing to ensure this status.

The Poles took over administration and Police, forbade German newspapers and laid taxes on all non-Polish imports/exports, factually occupying the city. All this was completely illegal, but nothing was done about it. People who resisted were shot in the streets.

Please do also have a closer look on a real map. Danzig did not seal the corridor. It is just that little dot as shown. Gdynia (Gdingen) and the whole area around were to stay under Polish control. Poland would by no means be landlocked.


To the recent day i don't understand why Poland wasn't given access to the Baltic more eastwards after ww1?! It was possible to give them a corridor between two nations (GER and Lithuania) - and not through a single one.

Why was it necessary to cut another nation apart? There is an explanation that is not so nice i think.

The decision to do so was the initial start to all tension that arose, methinks. As was the complete neglecting of the plebiscite results (part of the peace treaty in Versailles) after which the provinces should have stayed german since the ovewhelming part of the population wanted to do so.

The explanation for this is also a mystery.

As an US diplomat put it after Versailles was made to journalists: "This is no peace treaty but an armistice for 20 years".

 

[theokrat]

Please do also have a closer look on a real map. Danzig did not seal the corridor. It is just that little dot as shown. Gdynia (Gdingen) and the whole area around were to stay under Polish control. Poland would by no means be landlocked.

With a railroad+highway running trough the entire lenghts of the corridor the Germans could easily make up reasons to block Polish transfer over it thus practically landlocking them even if only by a strip of 1 kilometer. Also Danzig is not just a dot on the map but the area of Danzig stretches from Danzig itself right to Marienburg, that is app half the coastline Poland had and includes the mouth of the Vistula. This is essential as it connects inland navigation to a port at the baltic. i belive this is the very reason it was declared as Legue of Nation territory after the War (WW1). In principle a nice try to make the Polish independent while not handing it over completly, but in retroperspective a thing bound to lead to trouble.

 

[Borsook]

The Poles took over administration and Police, forbade German newspapers and laid taxes on all non-Polish imports/exports, factually occupying the city. All this was completely illegal, but nothing was done about it. People who resisted were shot in the streets.

This is a complete and utter lie. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but that's the way is.

Please do also have a closer look on a real map. Danzig did not seal the corridor. It is just that little dot as shown. Gdynia (Gdingen) and the whole area around were to stay under Polish control. Poland would by no means be landlocked.

True, but Gdynia at the time (end of WW1) did not have a developed port, it was just a very small town

To the recent day i don't understand why Poland wasn't given access to the Baltic more eastwards after ww1?!

Then read something on the history of that region, east Prussia, while it was Polish fiefdom for a quite long time, was never Polish in any (Political/cultural/ethnical/linguistic) sense. The post WW1 access to the Baltic that Poland got was justified historically, and fair with one exception: Gdansk (Danzig) that should have been Polish territory.

 

[theokrat]

This is a complete and utter lie. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but that's the way is.

That is right. The Polish did try to strenghten their influence of the city but what Federkiel writes here is indeed just wrong.

Gdansk (Danzig) that should have been Polish territory.

Here my friend we disagree. I do agree Poland had to have a Port to be sovereign. But i can see no just reason that Danzig should have been Polish. It was a German town inhabited by Germans. Polish claims on it would have been just as justified as German claims on Gdańsk today: not at all.

 

[Borsook]

Here my friend we disagree. I do agree Poland had to have a Port to be sovereign. But i can see no just reason that Danzig should have been Polish. It was a German town inhabited by Germans. Polish claims on it would have been just as justified as German claims on Gdańsk today: not at all.

True, the majority of Gdansk populace at the time was not Polish, still all other reasons, both those current at the time and historical should have put it in Poland's hands. Or Germany's, the "free city" idea was terrible, a sure way to start tensions.

 

[Federkiel]

This is a complete and utter lie. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but that's the way is.

Since i don't like being called a liar i looked it up. Admittedly i exaggerated: Danzig wasn't actually overtaken by Poland and the shootings didn't actually take place in Danzig but in Silesia.


11th July 1920, 92,8% in Western Prussia vote in plebiscite for remaining German - to no avail.

12th Feb. 1935, Protest of German workers against Poland taking control of of railways in the Danzig area.

22th July 1935, Polish ministry of Finance restricts Danzig's area of responsibility in questions of import taxes; protest of the senate of Danzig; national crisis in Danzig called out

3rd Aug 1935, Poland closes borders for wares from Danzig (agreement found on 8th Aug.)

8th Apr. 1936, agreement between Poland and Germany on transit traffic to East Prussia

4th July 1936, President of Danzig senate, Greiser, encourages League of nations to revision status of the city

8th July 1936, Banning of two German newspapers in Danzig

11th November 1936, Formal protest note of Danzig senate to Poland because of Poles tearing German flags in a Danzig restaurant

14th July 1937, New general agreement between Poland and Germany for transit through corridor, no agreement on status of people travelling found

3rd Dec 1937, 3 German pastors expulsed from Poland, all German workers in Upper-Silesia fired

30th June 1938, "Day of the Sea" in Poland, First speeches on Polish colonies

21rd March 1939, Negotiations between Germany and Poland on the corridor

6th April 1939, Anglo-Polish alliance

28th April 1939, non aggression pact between Germany and Poland ended mutually by Germany

13th May 1939, Military incidents at the Danzig/Poland border

until 30th May 1939, 5,000 Germans fled from Poland to Danzig,
76,535 directly to Germany (until begin of August)

11th June, Polish tax inspector imprisoned for espionage in Danzig

10th July 1939, Chamberlain makes "Danzig declaration" to back Poland

19th July 1939, Polish marshall Rydz-Smigly declares in speech: Poland is ready and willing to fight for Danzig

31st July 1939, Poland stops imports of wares from Danzig

5th Aug 1939, Poland protests against measures of self-determination in Danzig

7th Aug 1939, Senate of Danzig repulses Polish protest note. Polish newspaper "Czas" speaks about options to bombard Danzig

11th Aug 1939, 8 civil German travellers imprisoned while en route through corridor

18th Aug 1939, Danzig rises "Heimwehrtruppe" due to tensions, bridge over Weichsel to East Prussia opened

23rd Aug. 1939, Danzig confiscates Polish waggon with munitions and war materiel in Danzig

(25th Aug. 1939, shooting of 27 Germans resisting Polish conscription by Polish police)


This is what i found on Danzig. There have been countless cases of injustices of both Germans and Poles against each other and this is certainly not what we want to discuss here.

You may also find the source (Ph D Heuer, "Deutsche Geschichte in Stichworten" featuring all major events of the interwar era) biased and i don't know whether it is. I also cannot be sure whether all details are correct. Is there any source fully correct complete/unbiased?

AFAIK, history and truth are very difficult to be brought in accordance. It's always selection of facts, emphasizing and creation of context. All sources i have ever read suffer from this.

Some topics require a lot of care when coming up. I must blame myself for being somewhat too straightforward and in this case throwing together events i last read about a few years ago. Sry for that.

I am glad that we all agree that the historical decisions weren't the most promising and didn't help peace.

 

[cegorach]

Since i don't like being called a liar i looked it up. Admittedly i exaggerated: Danzig wasn't actually overtaken by Poland and the shootings didn't actually take place in Danzig but in Silesia.

So surely during the Silesian Uprisings.
Which explains a lot - that was a local conflict in ethnically mixed region and as such not without some acts of cruelty - on both sides of course which your source might not mention.

12th Feb. 1935, Protest of German workers against Poland taking control of of railways in the Danzig area.

Rather a fishing village.

Which was according to international agreements their responsibility - yes, Polish.

22th July 1935, Polish ministry of Finance restricts Danzig's area of responsibility in questions of import taxes; protest of the senate of Danzig; national crisis in Danzig called out

Because of supporting Gdynia and recovery from the Great Crisis.

8th July 1936, Banning of two German newspapers in Danzig

DONE BY the NAZIS.

11th November 1936, Formal protest note of Danzig senate to Poland because of Poles tearing German flags in a Danzig restaurant

14th July 1937, New general agreement between Poland and Germany for transit through corridor, no agreement on status of people travelling found

3rd Dec 1937, 3 German pastors expulsed from Poland, all German workers in Upper-Silesia fired

30th June 1938, "Day of the Sea" in Poland, First speeches on Polish colonies

21rd March 1939, Negotiations between Germany and Poland on the corridor

6th April 1939, Anglo-Polish alliance

28th April 1939, non aggression pact between Germany and Poland ended mutually by Germany

13th May 1939, Military incidents at the Danzig/Poland border

until 30th May 1939, 5,000 Germans fled from Poland to Danzig,
76,535 directly to Germany (until begin of August)

Dubious.

11th June, Polish tax inspector imprisoned for espionage in Danzig

10th July 1939, Chamberlain makes "Danzig declaration" to back Poland

19th July 1939, Polish marshall Rydz-Smigly declares in speech: Poland is ready and willing to fight for Danzig

31st July 1939, Poland stops imports of wares from Danzig

5th Aug 1939, Poland protests against measures of self-determination in Danzig

7th Aug 1939, Senate of Danzig repulses Polish protest note. Polish newspaper "Czas" speaks about options to bombard Danzig

11th Aug 1939, 8 civil German travellers imprisoned while en route through corridor

18th Aug 1939, Danzig rises "Heimwehrtruppe" due to tensions, bridge over Weichsel to East Prussia opened

23rd Aug. 1939, Danzig confiscates Polish waggon with munitions and war materiel in Danzig

(25th Aug. 1939, shooting of 27 Germans resisting Polish conscription by Polish police)

This is what i found on Danzig. There have been countless cases of injustices of both Germans and Poles against each other and this is certainly not what we want to discuss here.

The whole list is utterly one-sided, sometimes difficult to check and often very dubious.

Of course everything is niased to a degree, but this seems to be a list from a German revisionist source about Polish 'crimes' 'leading' to war.

I could easily add 30 facts which would show anti-Polish activities in Danzig or elsewhere in the northern region.

Why was it necessary to cut another nation apart? There is an explanation that is not so nice i think.

The decision to do so was the initial start to all tension that arose, methinks. As was the complete neglecting of the plebiscite results (part of the peace treaty in Versailles) after which the provinces should have stayed german since the ovewhelming part of the population wanted to do so.

Which plebiscite you are talking about ? The one in Mazuria ( southern Eastern Prussia) ? or Silesia (ended with 3 Silesian Uprisings) - there was nothing in this so called 'corridor' where population was either Polish or Kashubian (who usually identified themselves as Polish - thanks to germanisation campaign of Bismarck government and polish response) so what is that all about ?

True, but Gdynia at the time (end of WW1) did not have a developed port, it was just a very small town

Fishing village, actually - the port and the city was build from 1923 onwards into a 100 000 large city - I wonder how many German sources mention it at all.

 

[theokrat]

The whole list is utterly one-sided, sometimes difficult to check and often very dubious.

Of course everything is niased to a degree, but this seems to be a list from a German revisionist source about Polish 'crimes' 'leading' to war...I wonder how many German sources mention it at all.

This whole list shows actually very little one could mark as a significant crime. Most of the Polish actions desribed here toke place after the end of German-Polish negotiations in early 1939, a time when evereybody could easily see the upcoming war. A time at which Poland had every reason to be suspicious about german "merchants" traveling around.

Anyway it seems to be rather common in Poland today to think that there were many German authors who try make it look like the war was startet by Poland. However you get this idea, its not the case, if you want to find something like that you will have to dig deep. I dont know the book of Federkiel and wheather he just picked the events...


I admit there are this 1% idiots who vote rightwing at elections.

 

[cegorach]

Nope not this, but level of ignorance about the whole is very high - in Germany - comparatively with Poland.

I mean if you actually know very little or no about the partitions of the XVIIIth century and next you learn about the 'corridor' you make false assumptions very easily.

Besides I always liked those questions which show cooperation between nations - in case of Germany year 1000, XIth century, XVIth century german immigration and polonisation, XVIIIth and XIXth century polish heroes of german origin or wave of support to the November Uprisings.

Why always those nationalist nutters on both sides are so noisy and easy to see ?


I suspected this book is a revisionist 'source' which poses to be scientifical - thanks for clearing that, though.

 

[theokrat]

Nope not this, but level of ignorance about the whole is very high - in Germany - comparatively with Poland.

I mean if you actually know very little or no about the partitions of the XVIIIth century and next you learn about the 'corridor' you make false assumptions very easily.

Depends on what you mean by "whole thing". You know i did actually learned something about the partitions of Poland in school. And i surely learned something about Nazis. Ever year from class 6 till class 13. This can get veery annyoing.

I suspected this book is a revisionist 'source' which poses to be scientifical - thanks for clearing that, though.

I dont know, looked a bit for it and found it was a book of 1988 the publisher beeing not the right wing one, mostly comics. Tough they had some Landser Literature in th 1950s. Hard to tell.



Anyway to get this back to a game discussion(Before the mods return from their long vacation):

What do you think of a small AI chance for an event "Poland hands over Danzig and joins the Axis"? Obviously before they are backed up by Britain...

 

[Borsook]

What do you think of a small AI chance for an event "Poland hands over Danzig and joins the Axis"? Obviously before they are backed up by Britain...
[/COLOR]

While it was slightly possible for Poland to form a common alliance with Germany (after all both countries similar approach to many things, including antisemitism & anticommunism) I do not think such alliance could have happen so late in the developments, and also giving Danzig in the game terms is giving whole of Polish Pomerania, which is something Poland would never agree to.

If one wants to make a probable event resulting in Poland in Axis I would suggest adding an option to the partition of Czechoslovakia, i.e. giving a small part of it to Poland (btw Poland did take part in this event by capturing Zaolzie) in return Poland either joins Axis or Grants Germany military access (but still no Danzig).

 

[theokrat]

While it was slightly possible for Poland to form a common alliance with Germany (after all both countries similar approach to many things, including antisemitism & anticommunism) I do not think such alliance could have happen so late in the developments, and also giving Danzig in the game terms is giving whole of Polish Pomerania, which is something Poland would never agree to.

If one wants to make a probable event resulting in Poland in Axis I would suggest adding an option to the partition of Czechoslovakia, i.e. giving a small part of it to Poland (btw Poland did take part in this event by capturing Zaolzie) in return Poland either joins Axis or Grants Germany military access (but still no Danzig).

Danzig just for game reasons. Otherwise i fear Germany gets trouble supplying the troops in Russia\getting manpower from there. Not like Poland would loose much with Danzig in terms of game. I tought of it at some time of late 38.

 

[orimazd]

If you take the Sudetenland but don't take over the czech republic, is this not another way to get danzig? I remember reading somewhere that Poland is a lot more willing to give it up if you don't break your treaties like that.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Poland is more likely to give up Danzig (40%) if Britain doesn't guarantee them.

 

[tully]

How do I get Danzig without war ?

Play it nice: adhere to the terms of the Munich treaty, don't do Molotov-Ribbentrop, and influence Poland to +200. Then request territory diplomatically. That'll give you roughly a 50:50 chance of obtaining Danzig without a war.

 

[Federkiel]

Play it nice: adhere to the terms of the Munich treaty, don't do Molotov-Ribbentrop, and influence Poland to +200. Then request territory diplomatically. That'll give you roughly a 50:50 chance of obtaining Danzig without a war.

That is only possible in a 38 campaign. There you already have territorial claims.

The way i described on page 1 is the highest chance you can get in a 36 campaign and it is necessary to make M-R pact and press for Danzig. Otherwise you don't get any cores there.

 

[unmerged(49549)]

Yes and this is the way to go:

-> Coup Poland before 30th of March 39.
-> Invite them into alliance immedeately.
-> Ban them from the alliance before M-R pact.
-> Keep relations with them high. They are still NS and like you.
-> Demand new cores from them after MR-pact.

-> When "Danzig or war" fires, claim. Poland will fold with 40% probability.

This is the best you get without cheating.

Do I also need to influence them ? do the Relations need to be 200 when I coup poland ?

 

[Eviltape]

Do I also need to influence them ? do the Relations need to be 200 when I coup poland ?

A coup makes it +200 with you right off the bat if it works.

 

[unmerged(49549)]

A coup makes it +200 with you right off the bat if it works.

What if I coup them in 1937 ? is there some events there will not happen ?

If I make the alliance with them after the coup do I then get austria, prag and memel ?