Gestalts need a unity source to make up for not having factions

[Ludaire]

Recently I went through comparing various parts of my unity output in my rogue servitor empire and a pacifist empire to better understand why my unity was so far behind with rogue servitor. There were a variety of issues like bio trophies not getting the +30% capital production bonus, and I logged a bunch of bugs to cover that.

However, the single biggest discrepancy was faction unity. In 3.2, the benefits of factions don't scale with pop count, which means that things like the gestalt ethic getting an extra +1 influence and some other small boosts could make up the difference for the whole game without much of an issue.

I originally thought faction unity output was pretty small and only mattered early game, so it was similarly balanced by gestalt buffs, but it remains a big chunk of unity generation throughout the game because unity gained from factions scales with the number of pops. I looked at a few saves from 3.3 games I had, and faction unity was consistently between 20% and 30% of each empire's overall unity output.

This means that all else being equal, a non-gestalt empire will generate 25%-40% more unity than a gestalt just for having factions.

If there were real, serious costs to factions, that would be one thing. However, there isn't, as the factions just guide how you play rather than having any kind of upkeep. So this extra output is all but free, so it's not like gestalts can simply take the resources spent on factions and allocate then elsewhere.

Gestalts really, really need something to compete. The simplest thing would be to just give a small bump to the base output of all gestalt unity jobs so that gestalts will generate a similar amount of unity from jobs that a regular empires generates from jobs plus factions. Something more interesting and dynamic would be cool, but it seems like it's a bit late for that for 3.3.

You could argue the hive reduction to empire size cost increases and machines' reduced size from pops is that difference, but machines also have a penalty that affects their colony count, so that doesn't seem like a fair trade for what's effectively an empire wide -20% to unity. Especially since this forces gestalt empires to favor tech because they sacrifice lower unity for lower tradition and tech costs. Plus, pacifism has a similar or better reductions to size from pops while still retaining the huge unity gained from factions.

I think gestalts need something major to help out their unity production if they're going to compete with regular empires on this front.

 

[DeanTheDull]

The gestalt compete mechanic is their reduced unity requirement from sprawl penalty reduction, and increased unity production from potential habitats.

While I am on record of believing Machines in particular deserve better unity jobs to match their 3.2 relative job strength, Gestalts are in a very favorable positive over time. Hives have, what, a -25% sprawl from all sources? Their corresponding need for unity production since their unity requirements, which go up 2% every 10 sprawl, is way lower. Machines have a slightly rougher start with a 15 rather than 10 planet sprawl capacity, but their -15% per-pop penalty is still considerable over time, as pops are the majority of later game sprawl.

While this does have a greater impact on ability to afford edict spending beyond the edict fund, Gestalt influence is still an indirect asset in the unity game: the ability to afford more habitats for more unity-producing building slots, and pop growth positions to fill them. With +1 influence a month a Gestalt can afford an extra habitat every 12.5 years, and with lower potential influence sinks in economic deals they're liable to have even more.

 

[theBigTurnip385]

Hive unity output is fine are you building unity + resource worlds since the jobs synergize well.

RS is not a unity build its a research/alloys build, if you need to produce unity in the early game take memorialist.

a machine is not going to compete with a spiritualist/ zombie mega-corp for unity output, no one can compete with that build for unity output and why should they.

Every build shouldn't be producing the exact same output

 

[Weyird]

I think its fine if machines are designed to produce less unity than bio empires, but i think the scale from "best unity generating bio empire" and "worst unity generating machine empire" should be scaled back (assuming a similar number of pops and building types).

At game start, when you first start playing and haven't done anything yet, it shouldn't be the difference between 40-something unity producrion and single digits.

 

[A2ch0n]

I played recently a Machine empire for testing purpose and i never had unity problems rather i had a increadible tech advantage und could compete in unity with a spiritualist empire player on GA. So if gestalts get a unity boost, they need a harsh tech penalty.

I would more like to see even less unity for gestalts (machine more than hives) and let them strong in tech. Actually they can excell in both with the right civics (Maintainance Protocols, Memorialist, aso.). Actually from my point of view an gestalt played more passive in early game with a focus on tech and some unity enhancing civics is far above in power level compared to a unity focused empire if tech matters.

So give gestalts an advantage in tech and that there is less to manage inside an gestalt empire (like happiness or consumer goods) but unity should be the domain of normal empires and megacorps. If you want to shift some resources to a certain field aka unity, select civics that can reduce the disadvantage at cost of other things. It's the same for normal empires, you can focus on tech for the price of unity. Balance and a unique advantages for different empires are the key. That make stellaris interesting and encourage different playstyles.

 

[John MacWhat]

I think its fine if machines are designed to produce less unity than bio empires, but i think the scale from "best unity generating bio empire" and "worst unity generating machine empire" should be scaled back (assuming a similar number of pops and building types).

At game start, when you first start playing and haven't done anything yet, it shouldn't be the difference between 40-something unity producrion and single digits.

Yes, I cannot think of any other resource where the disparity in starting production is as big as unity is currently.

 

[Ludaire]

RS is not a unity build its a research/alloys build, if you need to produce unity in the early game take memorialist.

If this is the intended design, then that's very silly. If a civic makes major changes to a system for an empire, the result shouldn't be that they're weaker in the related resource compared to a standard empire rather than stronger. That would be like priests being worse unity generators rather than better unity generators. It would feel very off and strange regardless of balance.

To back up to the general topic, I'm totally fine with different empire types having different strengths. The issue is the magnitude and the fact that it's at such a small cost. A reasonably happy set of factions can be breaking a thousand unity per month by 2350, which is enormous. This doesn't even require a civic slot or something; it's essentially an effect on every non-gestalt authority saying "+25% unity output" in addition to the existing effect. That feels like too much.

 

[Strangedane]

If this is the intended design, then that's very silly. If a civic makes major changes to a system for an empire, the result shouldn't be that they're weaker in the related resource compared to a standard empire rather than stronger. That would be like priests being worse unity generators rather than better unity generators. It would feel very off and strange regardless of balance.

Let me get this straight, does RS start with lower unity income than an ordinary ME?
Because that would be beyond baffling.

 

[DeanTheDull]

If this is the intended design, then that's very silly. If a civic makes major changes to a system for an empire, the result shouldn't be that they're weaker in the related resource compared to a standard empire rather than stronger. That would be like priests being worse unity generators rather than better unity generators. It would feel very off and strange regardless of balance.

They're weaker and stronger in the related systems.

Rogue Servitors effectively trade weaker unity and raw material potential- from not being able to employ unity jobs or use bio-pops as resource generators- in exchange for bonuses to all other forms of specialist production.

 

[Ludaire]

Let me get this straight, does RS start with lower unity income than an ordinary ME?
Because that would be beyond baffling.

Servitors do have more, but that's mostly because machines are royally screwed and only have +7 unity output at the start of the game. After you destroy the bugged uplink node (which servitors aren't supposed to have), servitors are left with 13 unity. If the regular machine empire drops a second uplink node, they jump up to 19 instantly, but the servitor has to wait on bio pop growth.

For reference, a hive mind I fired up had 16 to start, a standard empire with no bonuses or penalties to unity had 23, and a spiritualist empire had 41. This is before factions, so the big edge non-gestalts have here is mostly thanks to ruler jobs providing a bunch of unity. Spiritualists on the other hand start with two unity buildings, which is why they're so high. It's a bit annoying that non-gestalt empires get a bunch of unity output from rulers without needing to dedicate building slots to it, but at least they're jobs with upkeeps that have to be worked by pops. It's also not that different from 3.2's situation where rulers are amenity jobs.

The main point of the thread is that once factions come online, regular empires are likely to get an extra 15-20 unity, and it scales up over time and seems to bounce between 20% and 30% of their overall output depending on how happy your factions are and how much you build unity.

They're weaker and stronger in the related systems.

Rogue Servitors effectively trade weaker unity and raw material potential- from not being able to employ unity jobs or use bio-pops as resource generators- in exchange for bonuses to all other forms of specialist production.

I understand what you're saying, but the result is:

"Hey, here's this cool civic that gives you a fun new way to generate unity!"
"Awesome! Wait, why do I generate less unity and have less control over the amount I generate?"
"Well, duh. It's a research/alloy civic. Why would you expect it to be a unity civic?"

I don't necessarily need rogue servitor to be the machine equivalent of spiritualists, but it would be nice if the unity output was at least a bit above average instead of below average. Then again, maybe with rogue servitor, you have to think of peaceful expansion as the low unity/high science strategy while wanting to go all in on unity means you need to get conquering. Which is a bit weird, but conquest equaling more unity is sorta fundamental to rogue servitor's mechanics. Ironic given how pretty much every other empire type will either have less unity if they focus on conquest or at least will need to expend more effort to get their conquered pops generating that unity and moved into happy factions.

 

[DeanTheDull]

I understand what you're saying, but the result is:

"Hey, here's this cool civic that gives you a fun new way to generate unity!"
"Awesome! Wait, why do I generate less unity and have less control over the amount I generate?"
"Well, duh. It's a research/alloy civic. Why would you expect it to be a unity civic?"

I don't necessarily need rogue servitor to be the machine equivalent of spiritualists, but it would be nice if the unity output was at least a bit above average instead of below average. Then again, maybe with rogue servitor, you have to think of peaceful expansion as the low unity/high science strategy while wanting to go all in on unity means you need to get conquering. Which is a bit weird, but conquest equaling more unity is sorta fundamental to rogue servitor's mechanics. Ironic given how pretty much every other empire type will either have less unity if they focus on conquest or at least will need to expend more effort to get their conquered pops generating that unity and moved into happy factions.

I don't really agree that's the framing, so YMMV I guess? Bio Trophy unity was always the consolation prize, and not the point, ever since they brought in the specialist modifier.

There's a lot of aspects of Stellaris were the application is non-obvious as initial glance, and honestly I prefer it that way, since it makes the mechanical interplays more dyanmic to subtle changes. It's non-obvious that Psionic Ascension is really a complimentary part of a trade build, but spiritualist homogenization and stability buffs are your best way to maximize planetary stability and boost trade value. Many people still don't realize that Pearl Divers and Artisans are really a trade-off of whether you have more pops as specialists or workers, and that the balance actually favors Pearl Divers despite half the CG output once you consider district sprawl and upkeep pop upkeep. The fact that Imperial Perogative ascension's admin reduction can be significantly more efficient for a science build than a science-boosting Technological Ascendancy. etc.

 

[TrotBot]

RS is not a unity build its a research/alloys build, if you need to produce unity in the early game take memorialist.

nah, RS is a pretty strong unity build if you lean into it. i took relic start, and as soon as my third civic came up i took maintenance protocols. which meant doubledipping on unity from both the leisure districts and the urban districts. i was running through the unity trees way faster than teching up at first, and was able to maintain pretty rapid adopting of new traditions throughout the game. yes, it's a strong science build too, because with your squishies shuffled off into leisure districts you can fill the slots with research labs. but it's also decent on unity if you make your biotrophies traditional and use all the unity boosting buildings like simulation site and ministry of culture. actually, that makes me think, i can't remember if machine intelligences get the option to put the "propaganda machines" trait for unity production on their drones. if not, then they should get access to something that does the same thing.

 

[DeanTheDull]

nah, RS is a pretty strong unity build if you lean into it. i took relic start, and as soon as my third civic came up i took maintenance protocols. which meant doubledipping on unity from both the leisure districts and the urban districts. i was running through the unity trees way faster than teching up at first, and was able to maintain pretty rapid adopting of new traditions throughout the game. yes, it's a strong science build too, because with your squishies shuffled off into leisure districts you can fill the slots with research labs. but it's also decent on unity if you make your biotrophies traditional and use all the unity boosting buildings like simulation site and ministry of culture. actually, that makes me think, i can't remember if machine intelligences get the option to put the "propaganda machines" trait for unity production on their drones. if not, then they should get access to something that does the same thing.

Machine empires don't. For Rogue Servitors, you're reliant on limited gene modding of the bio-trophies, I believe.

 

[Incompetent]

How much unity do Determined Exterminators get from purging? Of the machines, I feel like they're the most under pressure to get things done quickly, because a) they have to assemble almost every drone they will have, which gets very expensive and slow later on, limiting their potential drone count and b) it's not acceptable to be a mediocre empire power-wise, either you kill all the organics or you have failed. Giving them a significant unity bounty when they kill an organic pop could be one way to help keep up the momentum (while also discouraging shenanigans to try to keep organic pops alive, like purge worlds and so on).

 

[DeanTheDull]

How much unity do Determined Exterminators get from purging? Of the machines, I feel like they're the most under pressure to get things done quickly, because a) they have to assemble almost every drone they will have, which gets very expensive and slow later on, limiting their potential drone count and b) it's not acceptable to be a mediocre empire power-wise, either you kill all the organics or you have failed. Giving them a significant unity bounty when they kill an organic pop could be one way to help keep up the momentum (while also discouraging shenanigans to try to keep organic pops alive, like purge worlds and so on).

2 unity per pop per month, IIRC.

 

[lasator]

The only reason ME has unity problems (and not just at the start) is that their capital buildings do not provide unity producing jobs. ALL other empire types have at least 1 unity job attached to the capital. Normal empires get Politicians (and their various civic replacements) and hive minds get synapse drones. I've created a ME balance mod that attaches +6 unity/month to the hunter seeker drone job. This goes a very long way to balancing out the ME unity curve compared to other empire types and also makes the job worthwhile to fill (which I almost never do). It also disables the Sentinel Post building to avoid abuse of the job. It's an easy mod so try it yourself.

 

[TrotBot]

Should MEs, especially rogue servitor, get access to the unity ascension perk? Now that unity is so much more important, it feels weird not having it.

 

[Dementor4]

What IS unity anymore

If it's supposed to represent your civilization operating with a single purpose, shared goals and values, etc then how in the world do gestalts not beat out empires composed of trillions of individuals?

Factions represent DIVISION in your civilization, so why does HAVING them generate more unity than not having any?

I would think gestalts should have the benefit of a single "faction" that is perpetually treated as if it had 50% support.

 

[TrotBot]

What IS unity anymore

If it's supposed to represent your civilization operating with a single purpose, shared goals and values, etc then how in the world do gestalts not beat out empires composed of trillions of individuals?

Factions represent DIVISION in your civilization, so why does HAVING them generate more unity than not having any?

I would think gestalts should have the benefit of a single "faction" that is perpetually treated as if it had 50% support.

a happy faction provides unity. that makes sense, they mobilize support for you. does an angry faction remove unity? perhaps it should, based on its size. if it has mass support it should seriously hurt you.

 

[Flamgino]

What IS unity anymore

If it's supposed to represent your civilization operating with a single purpose, shared goals and values, etc then how in the world do gestalts not beat out empires composed of trillions of individuals?

Factions represent DIVISION in your civilization, so why does HAVING them generate more unity than not having any?

I would think gestalts should have the benefit of a single "faction" that is perpetually treated as if it had 50% support.

It's rare candies.

You use it to level up traditions, and to level up planets until they evolve into Blastoise, and you pay your scientists with it because they can survive on a diet of unity and