Germany's naval/dockyard gambit (A strategic discussion)

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Bluestreak2k5

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More massive to fit a few antennae and a box of electronics on destroyers than for Germany to re-tool half of its industry and build new shipyards?

Fitting the Huff-Duff RDF didn't require a dry dock. A few tech's/engineers, half a dozen tea-chests of kit and a few hundred metres of cable. No big deal.

As I've already pointed out, Britain had been building this type of equipment for years prior to 1940.

They just didn't have lots of cheap oscilloscopes.

The first serious losses to U-boats you're talking about would just happen two years earlier, as Britain will have responded to a much greater potential u-boat threat.

And this is what I want to see. A reactive AI. I know it's a little much to hope for to see the Brit' AI counter Germany's building of shipyards by prioritising ASW, but I can dream

Incidentally, Britain should be prioritising ASW anyway.


EDIT: I would also like to point-out that the "heavy lifting" of convoy escort & ASW duty was performed by the (260+) Flower class corvettes, which were built in small, civilian shipyards which normally built fishing vessels (would this be re-tooling Consumer Goods factories as Naval Dockyards?) rather than the larger shipyards where destroyers, cruisers & larger were being built. So there's no clash of requirements between building battleships, CVs etc. & building ASW assets.

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Tech-HFDF.htm

Huff duff tech didn't exist for ships until 1942, and still only in very small numbers. What you are suggesting is that somehow, someway this experimental technology would leap 4 years to begin testing in 1938 and be fleet wide by Sept 1939. That is an absolute impossibility, the tech simply doesn't exist to effectively fight subs in 1938, and 1939. While most likely possible that it would come out sooner, 4 years sooner is simply an impossibility.
 

Big Nev

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It wasn't experimental. As I've pointed out, RDF was in use in WW I. Just one of the reasons communication at Jutland was by signal lamp & flags rather than by radios that all ships of the period carried.

RDF had been in use for years by the RAF to track British fighters during the Battle of Britain in mid 1940.

Please understand that this system was already in-place, fully operational with ground staff that were fully trained & practiced in its use before the first German aircraft flew over Britain in WW II.

Ground stations had been set-up on the West coast to use RDF to spot enemy ships, submarines and aircraft by their radio emissions, just as they had been set-up on the East coast 30 years ealier. These were also fully operational with trained & experienced staff.

The ONLY thing Britain was short of, was cheap cathode-ray oscilloscopes (of a type already in production for high priority RADAR sets) and a need to do it.

What I'm suggesting is that it would be a lot easier for Britain to tech-rush the installation on ships (the installation part only taking a few weeks at most) of a tried & tested technology, two years earlier than actual, as compared to the suggestion that germany can re-tool half it's industry and build a load of U-boat yards (building the U-boats would be another treaty violation BTW) while Britain would just stand by and watch.

I also pointed out that it would be easier to tech-rush the installation on ships of a refined version of this tried & tested technology (capital ships already carried RDF equipment in the early 1930s) than it would be for Germany to tech-rush Kurier from nothing by four years.
 

Secret Master

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Allow me to weigh in.

First of all, I want to preface my remarks with the following statement: In my considered opinion, under the terms Germany fights WWII, there is no way the Axis can win the war historically. The disparity in resources, manpower, industrial capability, and even basic foodstuffs is too great. With her enemies unwilling to surrender or come to terms, there's not a lot for Germany to do but either completely occupy her enemies or lose. And occupying her enemies wasn't in the cards. Thus, if we are going to talk about strategies and gambits for Germany, we're talking about whether the gambit or strategy in question can fight the war more efficiently. And, of course, that this a game.

That being said, I side with Donitz and Churchill on the topic of submarines. Germany should have bet on the U-boat and not wasted time or resources on the surface fleet. (I'd quote them directly, but I don't have his history of the war or Donitz's memoirs handy at the moment.) No matter what you are using to detect submarines, it was going to always be easier to find and bomb surface ships now that RADAR is in play. (Before someone chimes in with "But ENIGMA!", I should point out that ENIGMA decryption hurts surface ships as much as subs.) The surface ships were a threat to convoys, but Germany is not ever going to even have close to enough capital ships to strangle Britain. They are large, manpower intensive, expensive ships that require very specific and easy to bomb shipyards to produce. And they take tons of time to build. Let's also stop and consider for a moment the fate of both Tirpitz and Bismark.

With a focus on U-boats from at least 1936, (especially with no naval engineering time wasted on the capital ships), Germany can get better U-boats into production sooner (some of the tech for advanced U-boats, like HuffDuff, was available before 1939, including the damn snorkel). With more submarines in place for 1939, she has a chance to inflict more grievous losses sooner on the British. Historically, Germany starts the war with 57 lousy low-tech U-boats. That number is entirely insufficient. Starting the war with far more and higher tech U-boats would make a huge difference early in the war. And that's when the difference needs to be made. It's too late in 1943. It's too late in 1942. Hell, it might be too late to seriously hurt Britain in 1941. But starting the pain in 1939 with much higher and more massive losses would be better than what happened during the war.

I should point out that even if the U-boats aren't strangling Britain completely, losses in shipping require replacement, which in turn requires steel and manpower. Much like Japan, Britain must replace shipping losses. She has no choice. In terms of attrition, as long as the U-boats are inflicting losses at least comparable to their own cost, it's a win for Germany even if some shipments are disrupted some of the time.

I should also point out that if the Luftwaffe would do its damn job and support convoy raiding operations more instead of pointlessly losing the Battle of Britain, it would go a long way to hurting Britain. But with Goering in charge, that ain't going to happen. (So the lesson here is to fire Goering... with a FlaK 88, for preference.)

Now, obviously, making a large U-boat fleet before the shooting starts is going to drive up world tension, as the only countries a huge submarine force would be used against are France and Britain (you don't need a huge force to sink Soviet shipping). But even with British rearming sooner, the good news is that Britain still has capital ship commitments she must meet. She cannot stop building BBs and CVs completely just to focus on corvettes and destroyers. There's Italy and Japan to think about, and in 1936, Japan and Italy have left the naval treaty system. So, even if she sees Germany spamming U-boats, there's Japan and Italy to think about. There would be a shift to sea lane defense, but destroyer spam wouldn't be in the cards.

I think that U-boat spam, even factoring British rearming, is better than the alternative. It presupposes knowing that Britain are going to attack Germany at some point, but it's still a good bet. It has the potential to fight the war far more efficiently than a balanced fleet with capital ships. Submarine spam, even when countered by high tech gadgets, is more dangerous to Britain than Graff Zepplin and Bismark times four.

A final consideration:

You know who wanted Germany to have capital ships and a balanced fleet? The Royal Navy. When work was being done on the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, the Royal Navy argued that it was better for Germany to have a balanced fleet rather than U-boats and/or Panzerschiffe. It would be easier to destroy and fight. To me, that's reason enough right there to do something different, as I feel the war proved the Royal Navy right. Allied U-boats ate the Japanese merchant marine for breakfast. And Germany's most expensive surface ships, while they enjoyed some victories, ended up being sunk by aerial attack.
 
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shri

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@bignev

But what if some TECH- sharing is allowed.
Artillery and Petrochemical techs of Germany are sorely needed by all its allies as is Panzer tech, in return they can get Aircraft carrier and carrier planes tech from Japan and produce an Akagi type carrier in less than 3 years - first one and second in about 2 years.
So in 5 years you have 2 relatively not well teched fleet carriers.

The Reason the USA was able to "leapfrog" was that in return for Debt and Lend-Lease UK signed away its hard researched techs.
 

Amur_Tiger

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HA! Yeah.

You can churn-out Graf Zeppelin CVs like sausages.

Considering it took them two whole years just to launch the damn thing.

A full year later, in December 39, she was still only 85% complete with a projected completion at least six months down the line.

That’s three & a half years from laying the keel to operability.

This was the best Germany could do could possibly have done and, in actual fact, was still fairly ambitious even without the diversion of resources to other projects.

Even then, even if they had managed to finish it and get it operational (after another six months of trials, taking us to FOUR years, minimum) her aircrew had still only been practicing on land.

I have it on very good authority that “putting a kite down on a postage stamp in the middle of the ocean” is nothing like landing on an airfield.

And then (and I love this) the aircraft she’d been designed to operate had to be strengthened for carrier operations. So now they were too heavy! The ships flight & hangar decks had to be reinforced and more powerful equipment had to be installed in order to be able to operate them.

Brilliant!

Seriously. For Germany to build an aircraft carrier, from game start on Jan 1st 1936, it should take about five years to get the first one operational. So… late 40/early 41. And the player should need to push it hard (= lose-out in other areas) in order to achieve this.

There should be a raft of technologies that you need to research (like Britain, Japan & the good-old US of A) had been doing for decades) before you can build an operational carrier.

Yeah, it took a while to get aircraft carriers going and that was in the context of navies who'd been actively sailing and operating over the decades leading up to WWII, nevermind a navy that was either dependent on WWI veterens or written material of the time to frame their thinking on naval warfare. I don't think it's any accident that the UK was ahead of the curve on aircraft carriers being one of the largest and likely the most active navy in the world at the time.

From a design point of view I think it might be worth making at least a single aircraft carrier build mandatory to get past the 1st generation of conversions and small escort carriers just because of the number of practical reasons that led to the following generations that would be hard to work out from design drawings alone.

@bignev

But what if some TECH- sharing is allowed.
Artillery and Petrochemical techs of Germany are sorely needed by all its allies as is Panzer tech, in return they can get Aircraft carrier and carrier planes tech from Japan and produce an Akagi type carrier in less than 3 years - first one and second in about 2 years.
So in 5 years you have 2 relatively not well teched fleet carriers.

The Reason the USA was able to "leapfrog" was that in return for Debt and Lend-Lease UK signed away its hard researched techs.

I'm not convinced this would have been possible during wartime, Japan would have had to help kickstart Germany's carrier efforts leading up to the war as during the war moving valuable personnel and materiel would have been very challenging. As an example of the number of people that you'd have to move take a look at some of the personnel shifting involved in the construction of the Kongo.

"To ensure transfer of the latest design knowledge to Japan more than 100 technical specialists were sent on 18 months secondments from Japan to Vickers during the construction phase of the Kongō. If superintendents, supervisors and trial witnesses are also included then approximately 200 Japanese spent time in Britain."

Carriers would be more demanding still as training an air group for carrier operations is an important and non-trivial task. Moving this sort of personnel around during the war would have been entirely impossible. I do however think that technical sharing between those with thorough geographical access to one and other should be possible
 
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Big Nev

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As usual, Secret Master is spot-on. Churchill is on record as having said that the only thing that ever really worried him was U-boats. Donitz, of course, also understood that Germany couldn’t build enough large surface units to challenge the huge lead (even of rust-buckets) England already had.

And, although I don’t have access to quotable material on this at the moment either, it’s quite well known that the Royal Navy was perfectly happy to have Germany build a few large targets. Possibly even looking forward to working with them against other, potential, adversaries. SCW blockade anyone?

Especially considering the only viable alternative.

I only have one, minor addition. And it’s with respect to this.

snip...
Now, obviously, making a large U-boat fleet before the shooting starts is going to drive up world tension, as the only countries a huge submarine force would be used against are France and Britain (you don't need a huge force to sink Soviet shipping). But even with British rearming sooner, the good news is that Britain still has capital ship commitments she must meet. She cannot stop building BBs and CVs completely just to focus on corvettes and destroyers. There's Italy and Japan to think about, and in 1936, Japan and Italy have left the naval treaty system. So, even if she sees Germany spamming U-boats, there's Japan and Italy to think about. There would be a shift to sea lane defense, but destroyer spam wouldn't be in the cards.

A: Send Donitz Flowers.

As I have already pointed-out, most of the corvettes that did the vast majority of the convoy escort & ASW work were built in small shipyards that were not even big enough to build destroyers.

I’ll add that at only 205 feet long, these ships required less space to build than a Type-VII U-boat! They were also significantly less complex, with a very basic hull and an “obsolete” propulsion system of the same type as the freighters they were built to escort.

So there is no need for Britain to choose between capital ships and a (massive) ASW fleet. The two simply do not compete, at all, for resources of plant & equipment, manpower, shipyards or skilled labour.


@shri

Tech’ sharing? This is Japan we’re talking about. They may have been behind in cryptology, but they were pretty good at keeping big secrets. Secrets like... their assault ship, the size of the Yamato class and, of course, those damn torpedoes.

And let’s remember that Japan fought alongside Britain & France in WW I. They were very friendly with both Britain (who taught them how to build modern battleships) and the USA, their major trading partner.

IMHO, there should be no possibility of Japan sharing tech’s with anybody until the shooting starts. Which means, basically, that short of building it for them (as Britain built Kongo) it's too late to help Germany with their carrier programme. Once firmly on the side of the Axis, Japan & Germany did, historically, share tech’s. Plans for tanks & guns were sent to Japan and plans for certain advanced Japanese tech’s (including Oxy-fuel torpedoes) were sent (but I don’t think they arrived) to Germany. I'm pretty sure they sent advisors to help-out with Graf Zeppelin too. But I can't find a source to confirm this.

That said, it takes more than plans & good advice to build the sophisticated set of integrated systems commonly known as a CV. Just like Spain's shipyards couldn't build Littorios, even with all the Italian help available, I doubt that Germany's first aircraft carrier would have been a success, even after five years.

What they should have done, again IMHO, was to start small. Spend two years mucking about with a little carrier to make all their mistakes with and then build a full-sized one that works in three.
 
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Secret Master

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I’ll add that at only 205 feet long, these ships required less space to build than a Type-VII U-boat! They were also significantly less complex, with a very basic hull and an “obsolete” propulsion system of the same type as the freighters they were built to escort.

Is one corvette of this kind enough to protect against a single Type VII, or do you need more than one for adequate convoy coverage?

A secondary question: If Germany spams U-boats, does Britain also need to beef up DD protection for its existing capital ships, especially given the historical performance of German submarines against British capital ships?

EDIT:
A tertiary question: Does Britain need more CVEs if Germany starts the war with 150 submarines instead of 57?
 
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Big Nev

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Is one corvette of this kind enough to protect against a single Type VII, or do you need more than one for adequate convoy coverage?
A secondary question: If Germany spams U-boats, does Britain also need to beef up DD protection for its existing capital ships, especially given the historical performance of German submarines against British capital ships?
EDIT:
A tertiary question: Does Britain need more CVEs if Germany starts the war with 150 submarines instead of 57?

You need more than one escort to protect a convoy. This is why there were more than 260 Flowers built.

Fortunately, U-boats were usually strung-out in thin lines in order to maximise coverage and needed to radio each-other in order to congregate as a wolf-pack. Hence the impact of RDF both on hunting sub's and avoiding them.

If Germany starts spamming U-boats early, Britain should start spamming DEs early.


Second question.

Yes, but not hugely. Even though the U-boat was primarily an anti-commerce weapon, we all know capital ships make juicy targets-of-opportunity. That said, Britain had a huge number of destroyers in home waters. There were more than a hundred held in reserve to “interdict” against a possible Sealion so… there were reserves.


Tertiary.

No, I don’t think Britain would have needed more CVEs if Germany had started with three times as many U-boats. But even if they did, this still wouldn’t pose a problem to the UK ship builders as the majority were built in the USA (Bogue & Casablanca classes). They would have just needed them earlier. To meet this requirement, I would think, that the stop-gap MACs (converted from civilian ships, in civilian shipyards) would have been seen as a requirement significantly earlier and more of these adaptations would have been needed & provided.

The two big advantages of CAMs being, of course, that they could be modified in a few months and continued to operate as cargo ships (at 70% to 90% capacity) at the same time as providing ASW aircraft.
 
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shri

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@bignev

I agree with your Japanese analysis of secrets. But your diplo analysis is a bit off, why?
Once the MEIJI era kicked off, the British were training Japanese Navy and the French the Japanese Army, soon the Military reforms undertaken by GFM. Moltke were see by the perceptive Samurai (do remember, the Samurai class numbering about 8-12% population have always been well educated inc. a substantial part of the women who held the household purse strings, the No-Guns policy was an ideology not an indication of backwardness).
Soon by 1880 or so, Prussian army officers were tutoring the Japanese and this continued for nearly 20 years, well into the 1890s. Jacob Meckel's bust was kept in the Staff college for the reforms he introduced- Combination of Shinto teachings and Clausewitzian teachings, War games, Military staff, Discipline etc. The 1894 Sino-Japanese victory's main Generals were mostly Meckel tutored.
So, a German-Japanese alliance if a better diplomat could have been found in the Berlin backalleys would have been possible as early as 1890s or at-least by 1906.
A Japanese team collaborating is not very far-fetched, the Third reich was extremely short of money/gold but not totally short of technology.
The 'Molotov-Ribbentrop' pact shows that the Germans gave away plans of the 'Bismarck class Battleships', the Hull of Cruiser Lutzow, ME109 planes, machine tools (as late as 1942 the Germans had more machine tools than even USA- this was one of the primary factors for the Speer miracle - allocating the available resources properly), Bombers etc.
A Sino-German deal was also under-way since the late 1920s.
So, a German-Japanese deal could have been struck with more astute diplomacy in the 1930s, not too far fetched.
 

Secret Master

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You need more than one escort to protect a convoy. This is why there were more than 260 Flowers built.

Fortunately, U-boats were usually strung-out in thin lines in order to maximise coverage and needed to radio each-other in order to congregate as a wolf-pack. Hence the impact of RDF both on hunting sub's and avoiding them.

If Germany starts spamming U-boats early, Britain should start spamming DEs early.

This is where I'm kind of going with this thought. One DE is cheaper and easier to build than a U-boat. Two is cheaper. Three? Four? Five?

With larger wolf packs in the picture (or more of them operating in serial), Britain has no choice but to indulge in DEs. Sure, RADAR, HuffDuff, ULTRA decrypts, Leigh Lights, and a whole host of other things are important, but until the Mid-Atlantic Gap is closed, Britain really has to build these things. With an arms race in the offing by a hypothetical German abandonment of capital ships in favor of submarine spam, I can see Britain spreading her budget dollars around (err, pounds actually) differently, taking money away from other projects even if the dockyards are not at full capital ship production capacity. (A sort of, "We have the slipways, but not the steel or cash or manpower" situation.)

I'm also thinking of March 1943 in this scenario. Even with high tech gadgets available in 1943, March was an ugly month for the British. If you put 150 U-boats into action in 1939, even if the British have higher techs than the historical start for 1939, and even if they have spammed DEs, I don't see them escaping significant damage. Imagine March 1943 losses in October of 1939? Sure, Germany can't sustain that kind of U-boat effort indefinitely (Donitz's approach in March was kind of an "all hands on deck for a big push" thing), but it sure looks a lot scarier with the US not in the war yet and with no Lend-Lease in the offing (still under Cash and Carry at the time).

Oh, and we're doing all of this at a time when ULTRA hasn't gotten good enough to read ENIGMA traffic in a timely fashion, whereas in 1943, it was providing all kinds of data on a daily basis. Germany doesn't know it, but for the U-boat arm, sooner is better than later thanks to ULTRA.
 
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Why not just use aircraft to rival the english navy? We will need aircraft anyway. And a small surface fleet to transport troops. Germany doesnt need Carriers. Only Airports near the coast.
 

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Secret Master, are the losses for March '43 that you talk about just British shipping or all Allied shipping in the Atlantic?

If I recall correctly, early '43 was the second "Happy Time" due to the US not using convoys.
 

Big Nev

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@Secret Master

A single little tick doesn’t do justice. So I’ll add that three times the U-boats in 39 would, obviously, have had significantly greater impact. But, wouldn’t the building of those U-boats through 37 & 38 have allowed (even required) the British government to spend more of its cash. In game terms, the increase in world tension from a German U-boat spam (in direct violation of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement*) would be a lot greater than a handful of large targets (as components of a ballanced fleet & sanctioned by the RN) and would, at the very least, allow ENG to enact better laws sooner. Possibly enacting sanctions &/or blockades.

EDIT: Or a stronger stance on Czechoslovakia?

@dav77-b

Well… historically, the Luftwaffe had an utterly dismal record against ships.

There are a few reasons for this.

Their ground attack aircraft were ground attack aircraft. Duh! And their pilots weren’t trained in the attack of shipping.

They didn’t have an AP bomb for use against armoured ships. At least, not until quite late.

They didn’t have enough torpedo manufacturing capability to even train their pilots. If memory serves, in 39/40 they were only making five arial torpedos a month! They were buying torpedoes from Italy.

So, in HoI 3, this translates as

No tech’s or doctrines related to aircraft attacking ships and no NAVs.

It should take quite a while for Germany to catch-up with even Italy in this regard, let alone Britain or Japan.

And they only have so much research to spend so if the player wants to dilute his ground attack capability to have some reasonable ship attack capability, that’s fine. But it’s a brave call to weaken the Stuka, if that’s where you want to take the hit.

Add to this that long-range bombers, of a type useable against ships, are basically target practice for ground-based fighters and don’t fare very much better against carrier-based fighters.

Granted, the MACs I mentioned only carried a handful of Swordfish for ASW work and wouldn’t have been able to recover a high-performance fighter although the original concept was for them to carry six Hurricanes which would make mincemeat of any torpedo-armed aircraft or bomber with the required range.

All that said, it’s my understanding that Germany’s use of aircraft in France against British shipping is vastly more effective than even an early U-boat spam.



* Basically, Germany was allowed to have 45% of the tonnage in sub’s as Britain (& the Commonwealth) but, in exceptional circumstances could go as high as 100% but was required “to give notice this effect to His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, and agree that the matter shall be the subject of friendly discussion before the German Government exercise that right.”
 
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For HoI4 though, I do hope they have a little secret 'goal' tucked away for the player to pursue if he manages a German-Japan Alliance, specifically in covering exchange of technology; presumably tank-carrier swapping.

But given that HoI4 isn't going to be railroaded, the ship building is really down to who you anticipate fighting. If Britain veers off into neutrality then there's breathing room to develop a proper navy. Who knows? I'm certainly interested in sub-spamming because I get the feeling they were dire in HoI3 if they came into contact with anything that wasn't a convoy.
 

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@Big Nev
What I was trying to argue and what I believe @Secret Master is arguing is that there is only a limited amount of money/manpower that can be dedicated by the UK in a pre-war situation.

All countries face the same situation during peace, what should the military budget be, and where should it go. If we work from this assumption and UK sees a German submarine buildup, they have to divert money and resources from other projects such as carrier, or battleship production. They could also shift from other military branches such as ground or air, but I doubt those armed services would be cut.

UK is not simply going to increase it's budget by 50% or 100% in a peace time scenario in order to build new destroyers and escorts, and they would have never committed to cutting back capital ship production (and if they did Italy and Japan have a much easier time), so the question is where does this money and resources come from to completely refit and rebuild a ASW fleet for the UK.

There is no scenario where I see the UK being able to effectively combat german subs in a sub focus Germany because the tech simply doesn't exist and they cannot afford to move budgetary/resources away from prior commitments. They might be better prepared, but even Huff-Duff would take a revolutionary leap to get 4 years sooner.
 

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Secret Master, are the losses for March '43 that you talk about just British shipping or all Allied shipping in the Atlantic?

If I recall correctly, early '43 was the second "Happy Time" due to the US not using convoys.

Nope. The Second Happy Time was in 1942. But as you say, yes, it was because the US wasn't using convoys, AND wasn't implementing other measures to make it harder for U-boats to sink the damn convoys (like coastal blackouts and stuff like that).

March of 1943 was the last big push before Black May, which saw the U-boat arm decimated upon the closing of the Atlantic Gap (from which the U-boats did not recover). This was the one time the British seriously considered abandoning convoys because of the seriousness of the losses.

@Secret Master

A single little tick doesn’t do justice. So I’ll add that three times the U-boats in 39 would, obviously, have had significantly greater impact. But, wouldn’t the building of those U-boats through 37 & 38 have allowed (even required) the British government to spend more of its cash. In game terms, the increase in world tension from a German U-boat spam (in direct violation of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement*) would be a lot greater than a handful of large targets (as components of a ballanced fleet & sanctioned by the RN) and would, at the very least, allow ENG to enact better laws sooner. Possibly enacting sanctions &/or blockades.

EDIT: Or a stronger stance on Czechoslovakia?

Bear in mind, I'm assuming that Germany and Britain don't sign the AGNA in this scenario. If Germany signs it, and then violates it in 1936, then we're in a whole other bizarre area where Germany has broken her promises earlier with more force. If Germany signs the AGNA and then breaks it, I would consider that even more bone-headed than any other move Hitler could make. Even he didn't break the AGNA until the UK allied with Poland.

Would U-boat spam have led to bigger UK budgets? Yes, it would. It might have kicked things off in 1938 (which leads to a whole other cluster-fark of a scenario now that Germany has gone the U-boat route). And yes, Britain starts spending more in general. But she still has RAF commitments to meet alongside her RN commitments (Chamberlain's insistence on beefing up the RAF in 1938 was very foresighted of him).

We're talking about Germany shifting production from A to B, while keeping the budget the same. Britain in this scenario can't just shift production from A to B (Germany can completely ignore capital ships, but Britain cannot), but she gets more budget to work with. At the same time, a big push in 1939 inflicting 1943 style losses (proportional, not actually numerically equal), fits well with Germany trying to win the war (or reach a truce) with Britain sooner rather than later. (Note: I'm not suggesting Britain will capitulate, but the Cabinet and senior military commanders might face being fired, changing the landscape of the war. It's an interesting scenario to think about, especially given the issues Commons faces in early 1940.)

If the war kicks off in 1938 because of Germany's behavior, it's a net loss regardless (war in 1938 is not in Germany's favor, even if players in HOI can make it work). But if Germany still gets Munich and Vienna, then I wonder if the U-boat strategy might still be a more efficient way to fight the war.

Given GDP and industrial efficiency and a few others factors, would Germany be able to capitalize on an early U-boat strategy even if the British counter it with DE spam? It's an honest question, because I don't know the answer (other than I think the German capital ships were waste; but maybe scrapping the navy completely and making 10,000 more bombers would be a better idea).
 
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BBBD316

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Well I hope various nations have to use spies to find all this out.

I am happy if I go full sub for the UK to respond, but they would have to have people on the ground to find out. Well unless Hitler gets photographed at the sub pens for the news.
 
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Big Nev

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Well I hope various nations have to use spies to find all this out.

I am happy if I go full sub for the UK to respond, but they would have to have people on the ground to find out. Well unless Hitler gets photographed at the sub pens for the news.

No... not necessarily on the ground.

People in the air would be perfectly adequate to spot Germany building more sub's (or anything else that can't be hidden under a tree) than she's supposed to.

Don't forget, everybody knew Japan was building the three Yamatos. (I believe Italy estimated their tonnage at 35,000. A bit of a stab in the dark I think)

It was just the detail of what these ships actually were that was lacking.

New sub' yards & new sub's would be similarly obvious to anyone with a passing interest. Specific types would be more difficult to identify but an indication of size would also be fairly easy. So you can have a guess that a 220 foot long sub of un-known type is going to be performing a different role to a 140 foot Type II that you're familiar with.

It's half as long again. Hmm... I wonder what it'll be used for? "I wonder if it'll be friendly"*

*The Whale, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
 
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I absolutely agree about Germany being better off focusing on submarines over surface ships. I actually made a thread about it awhile back. If you look at the number of men if nothing else that were freed up from the navy later in the war it was quite massive how much the surface fleet used. I still think though that it won't have been enough to say make a difference in the East but it is possible that a Germany focused on subs would have put a great strain on British resources.
 
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  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
Well maybe Germany starts talking about the new way to move goods. Underwater! no more loss of cargo off decks! Transport your good by sub today!