Germany's naval/dockyard gambit (A strategic discussion)

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Denkt

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Even though the game is far from being released we can already now talk about strategies because we have decent knowledge about many important concepts.

Germany start with 40 military factories, 10 dockyards and about 20 civilian factories (because of consumer goods this number is in practice 17).

As you can see Germany have a great amount of military factories (most in the world) but the rather low amount of dockyards will hinder naval play and a powerful navy is needed to defeat UK and even US.

While your enemies starts with many more dockyards they have the disadvantage of they are dependent on convoys, a weakness you should make as much use of as possible if you looking for victory.

This opening strategy is created to put as much pressure on your naval opponents as possible.
The key to naval dominance is your dockyards because they are the factories that produce ships. Dockyards are unqiue in that you can't convert other factories from or into dockyards, so you need to build them.

But to build dockyards you need to use civilian factories, here most players will probably wan't to build more civilian factories however that may be a big mistake because focusing on fixing a weakness (long term development) instead of focusing on early strengths will probably lead to a weak performance, if not your enemies do big mistakes to.

So use your civilian factories to build military factories and dockyards.
The dockyard gambit is to use all civilian factories to build build dockyards and convert a part of your military factories into civilian factories. Thats why it is a gambit.

This will give you an enormous increase in the number of dockyards and if left unanswered by your enemies, you will most likely win the naval war and thus knock out two major opponents. And even if they do, you should still have gotten a larger naval advantage + they are forced to fix a weakness instead of focusing on their strength (late game buildup with early civilian factory buildup).

Your research should be focused on the industry and navy early on to amplfy the effect of the dockyard buildup.
You should produce all ship classes because they are all different threats to your enemy, if you only build one class it is very easy to counter but if you build many classes, your enemy make not be able to defend against all threats.

The big risk is naturally the land warfare but it greatly depends on how many military factories you convert into civilian. Your technology will be a bit behind, you may have to delay the war a couple of years and reconvert your civilian factories into military and research state of the art technology, the advantage may be that the enemy stockpile may be outdated which may allow an easy land victory against countries such as France and Poland while your abnormal large navy will remove UK and US as a threat.
 
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hkrommel

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An interesting thought. However, I don't think that it will be possible to actually compete with the Allied navies in terms of actual ships if things go even semi-historically in terms of timeline. Even the historical Plan Z was supposed to be completed in 1948 if I remember correctly. In terms of gameplay, I've never been able to successfully implement Plan Z (either the surface fleet or the U-boat strategy) early enough, as focusing on my navy leaves my army and airforce far too weak in terms of both overall strength and technology.

To win the naval war as Germany I usually use my airpower (large groups of NAV with escort fighters on the seas, CAS on ports) to eliminate enemy ships and that usually gets the job done. I remember one time I sunk 10 battleships (both British and American) in a single month with no micromanagement (I was busy on the Eastern Front).
 
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Mannstien

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I wouldn't bother, I will be using a combination of a Naval Air Arm and a mixture of surface raiders + sub's, I wouldn't bother with BB's, CV's and probably not even BC's. Just fast CA's/PBB's with DD screens to draw enemy fleets out to be bombed while the subs wreck havoc on ye ole convoy's. If you get the Southwest Coast of France the closer you can base your NAV's to the sea and attack the shipping lanes to the Rock and the Med.
 

Denkt

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I wouldn't bother, I will be using a combination of a Naval Air Arm and a mixture of surface raiders + sub's, I wouldn't bother with BB's, CV's and probably not even BC's. Just fast CA's/PBB's with DD screens to draw enemy fleets out to be bombed while the subs wreck havoc on ye ole convoy's. If you get the Southwest Coast of France the closer you can base your NAV's to the sea and attack the shipping lanes to the Rock and the Med.

Which are easy to counter with interceptors and then the enemy will just build up and eventually you will likely lose.
If enemy know you will play subs, they just play destroyers who beat subs and without any dockyard buildup you will not threat their convoys at all.
 

Denkt

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I personal am intrigued by this idea. i may try it myself. if you pull it off you should consider writing an AAR. i would love to read it.

Maybe however I have many more gambits and strategies even for minor countries such as Sweden.
The main point as playing as Germany is to control the direction of the game, the initiative is pretty much the only thing you have so passive game will lead to defeat, the more forcing you chose to play the chance will be that you will do well. The dockyard gambit may be the best I have right now because I think you don't risk to much but you can win alot with it.

The worst thing you can do is to allow the democracies to build civilian factories with no risk at all, that is just asking for defeat.
 
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RVallant

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It might have been workable if we had a 1936 start, but I'm not convinced it would be worth doing in 39, by the time the dockyards are up and running and the ships are built... It would be what? 43-44 by the time a CTF or SAG is up and ready, assuming we were conservative due to troops requirements for invading Russia.

I'm not sure to be honest.
 
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Mannstien

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Which are easy to counter with interceptors and then the enemy will just build up and eventually you will likely lose.
If enemy know you will play subs, they just play destroyers who beat subs and without any dockyard buildup you will not threat their convoys at all.

So obviously I shouldn't build interceptors to counter them and hang out where all the destroyers are? lol
 

Axe99

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It's an interesting choice, and one of the great things about HoI4's approach so far (more interesting (and historically plausible) choices :)). Its effectiveness will depend a lot on whether the AI sensibly reacts to builds (ie, if the UK/US see Germany going the 'whole hog' navally, and respond in kind).
 
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Mannstien

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It's an interesting choice, and one of the great things about HoI4's approach so far (more interesting (and historically plausible) choices :)). Its effectiveness will depend a lot on whether the AI sensibly reacts to builds (ie, if the UK/US see Germany going the 'whole hog' navally, and respond in kind).

It will get more interesting when a DD regarding espionage is done to find out how anyone will know what other countries are doing and at what cost!!
 
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Art1985

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I always prefer concentration on air forces, they are helpful against navy and land enemy forces. I don't think it's good choice for Germany to build strong navy and try to defeat UK or US navy in open fight. They already got strong navy and will build even more of it especially if they get info about you building navy.
I think I will build subs in dockyards and maybe some lonely riders or will create small fleet that will operate only in places where my air force will cover them. And with my air force I will try to sink as many ships as I can, even in enemy ports. And I hope my subs will drain enemy convoy capacity. In many games as Germany I have conquered Spain to have control over Gibraltar and to have air support over that place and so that enemy would be without it. And even more, enemy convoy's have longer route to Egypt and India. And even transport with troops will pass there and I will have a chance to sink enemy troops and help Italians. But this strategy goes only for AI enemy. Humans usually smarter, and only game mechanics can spoil something for them, for example as England in hoi3 you can't modify convoy routes.
 
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jackalope81

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One thing you could do is build long lead time ships early and then when you conquer the continental allies use their shipbuilding for destroyers and subs. I imagine the idea is to do sea lion before invading USSR?
 

shri

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A good gambit, against AI it may succeed, but if by chance you play PBEM and USSR player decides to scrap the dockyards and convert them to Civilian and all Civilian to Military and keeps pumping Civilian in 1936-1941 period, the Red Army may become a GREAT POWER and may smash up Germany in 1941-42 itself. It can be called as - ANTI Dockyard Gambit- Useful only for USSR.
 
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CyberianK

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I always prefer concentration on air forces, they are helpful against navy and land enemy forces. I don't think it's good choice for Germany to build strong navy and try to defeat UK or US navy in open fight. They already got strong navy and will build even more of it especially if they get info about you building navy.
I think I will build subs in dockyards and maybe some lonely riders or will create small fleet that will operate only in places where my air force will cover them. And with my air force I will try to sink as many ships as I can, even in enemy ports. And I hope my subs will drain enemy convoy capacity. In many games as Germany I have conquered Spain to have control over Gibraltar and to have air support over that place and so that enemy would be without it. And even more, enemy convoy's have longer route to Egypt and India. And even transport with troops will pass there and I will have a chance to sink enemy troops and help Italians. But this strategy goes only for AI enemy. Humans usually smarter, and only game mechanics can spoil something for them, for example as England in hoi3 you can't modify convoy routes.
Totally this. Building land units and air support is just crucial everything else is an invitation for others to obliterate you. SO I'll probably do only a few small task forces for naval landings like in Scandinavia and White Sea plus U-Boats for destroying convoys.
Then later in the game when you control all the land and ressources from French West Africa to Mongolia and your panzers don't have much to do anymore you can shift production to Carriers, Battleships and whatever needed. At that point you will proably have captured the needed dockyards too.
We can capture dockyards and factories right?
 

Gamer_1745

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I am disappointed with the factory situation with HoI3. I have found many missing factories in Germany (some major ones). What I think they did was to look at the 1939 OOB and see what it would take to build it from 1936 to 1939 and just placed factories in likely spots. German production didn't work that way. I am currently reading Wages of Destruction by Tooze and plan to read Occupied Economies: An Economic History of Nazi-Occupied Europe, 1939-1945 next to get a better understanding. I need to try to find something similar on the U.S. & Britain and the Soviets. Anybody have suggestions?

I hope to model production better for HOI IV. Including consequences for moving too fast to military production that I see in things like the recent Youtube group play.
 
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joe9594

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A good gambit, against AI it may succeed, but if by chance you play PBEM and USSR player decides to scrap the dockyards and convert them to Civilian and all Civilian to Military and keeps pumping Civilian in 1936-1941 period, the Red Army may become a GREAT POWER and may smash up Germany in 1941-42 itself. It can be called as - ANTI Dockyard Gambit- Useful only for USSR.

The question in this regard is whether you even can change dockyards to other stuff. If you can my instinct as germany would probably be to just make all my dockyards civilian factories to maintain strong arms production while also building up more industry to use all the new resources that I will soon be gaining. It would make sense forma gameplay perspective if conversion wasnt possible because the other 2 types of factories just seem better. industry and army are universally required while for a land power like germany or the USSR a navy is kind of a luxury.