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keynes2.0

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He mentioned it like briefly at the start and then we spent five pages of having people deny that Germany was the aggressor in the war. It's not a tread about BF1.

but by the time it was moving forward they couldn't back down and not look weak?

They wouldn't have been backing down, they would have been accepting victory without a shot fired.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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He mentioned it like briefly at the start and then we spent five pages of having people deny that Germany was the aggressor in the war.
Out of curiosity, why is Germany the sole aggressor if Austria made a demand to be rejected after Germany foolishly gave them a blanko cheque ?
 

Mder1

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Historians don't matter at all.

I care about Sumer and Akkad, therefore Germans care about Sumer and Akkad.
So being a Historian and being German are mutually exclusive?
 
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keynes2.0

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Out of curiosity, why is Germany the sole aggressor if Austria made a demand to be rejected after Germany foolishly gave them a blanko cheque ?

The completely unreasonable demands made of Russia, France and Belgium and the German refusal for arbitration by the United States or Britain which could have resulted in a perfectly reasonable peace.

Oh plus the part where they declared war and invaded nations in order to take their territories and exact concessions by force of arms. Bit of a dead giveaway, that part.

edit: I missed the word "sole" before. No, Germany was not the sole aggressor.
 
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demanvanwezel

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The completely unreasonable demands made of Russia, France and Belgium and the German refusal for arbitration by the United States or Britain which could have resulted in a perfectly reasonable peace.

Oh plus the part where they declared war and invaded nations in order to take their territories and exact concessions by force of arms. Bit of a dead giveaway, that part.

edit: I missed the word "sole" before. No, Germany was not the sole aggressor.

germany didn't want any territory before the war
she wanted to safeguard her own territory

it was only after the war had begun that she was looking what she could gain out of this (quite logical to me)
 

Tyon

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So being a Historian and being German are mutually exclusive?

Holy crap Mder how many historians are there? They are a minuscule number and absolutely irrelevant.

Yeah okay. 99% of Germany doesn't care about WW1. *slowclap*
 
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keynes2.0

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germany didn't want any territory before the war
she wanted to safeguard her own territory

it was only after the war had begun that she was looking what she could gain out of this (quite logical to me)

If you want to protect yourselves you dont go around invading territories to add to your enemies! If you want to protect yourselves you dont reject every appeasement! Name me a single thing that Germany could not have gotten without war besides the conquest and domination of it's neighbors.

I will point out that Vladamir Putin said that he had no territorial ambitions on Crimea until after Russian troops had already occupied the territory. It's called lying. You have a hundred years hindsight to see the lies. You know the peace they ultimately forced on the Russians. You know the designs they had on the French, Belgians and Dutch.

And if you think that is logical then I think that shows why you dont understand that Germany was an aggressor. The other natiosn did not accept the idea of the vast conquests and peace through intimidation that Germany wanted. They did not make similar claims of their own when Germany was defeated.
 

Fornadan

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"Once I had made up my mind to murder the victim, a fight to the death was a certainty so I had to kill him in self defense".
sorry, but you lost me
 

Fornadan

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Avernite

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"
"He offered me his wallet and begged for his life but it occured to me that if I killed him, I could take his shoes as well. Really he has only himself to blame for being so stingy. Now the psychiatrist asked why I didn't demand the man take off his shoes instead of killing him. To be honest, in the heat of the moment I didn't know it was his shoes I wanted, I just knew that he was holding out on me."
Really, nice strawman. I never said Serbia was holding out on anyone, I said they were not being "Very generous" (quoted words, not my idea). I said so because they rejected a demand that mattered, rather than rejecting Austria's demand for its shoes or whatever ancillary terms they cooked up. Hence they were, to me, generous at best but probably not even that.

If I hit you and you ask for an apology and my shoes, giving you my shoes but not apologizing isn't the epitome of generosity.
 
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Easy-Kill

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The only bias I see here are IsadorsBGs polemic rants. Otherwise the discussion is pretty rationale.

Indeed, this is a pretty healthy discussion and very interesting to see the different views of different people and in particular the country they come from. I am enjoying reading it and will probably not participate too much (I get way too enthusiastic about the topic!)
 
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Andrelvis

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Holy crap Mder how many historians are there? They are a minuscule number and absolutely irrelevant.

They are relevant for, you know, discussing history. Which is the point here. If no one in Germany cares about the 18th century either, that's the fault of their own cultural illiteracy, it has nothing to do with how important the time period actually is.
 
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Andrelvis

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Herbert West

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Out of curiosity, why is Germany the sole aggressor if Austria made a demand to be rejected after Germany foolishly gave them a blanko cheque ?

Because there was no Austria-Hungary left to retroactively assign blame to, and thus exact reparations from.
 

stevieji

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This thread has prompted me to re-watch a BBC docu-drama called '37 Days'. It's available on DVD - and here ...


It focuses on the diplomatic manoeuvres between the assassination and the outbreak of war - based on records of the actual diplomatic communications. No one comes out of it looking very good, but there is a strong feeling of inevitability that runs through it. Not because it wasn't possible to avert the war - although we know, of course, that it wasn't averted - but because diplomatic obstinacy and miscalculation made it impossible to avoid, once a certain momentum was built up.

It might sound like a dry subject for a drama, but it really is excellent and I recommend it to anyone here.
 

yerm

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And if you think that is logical then I think that shows why you dont understand that Germany was an aggressor. The other natiosn did not accept the idea of the vast conquests and peace through intimidation that Germany wanted. They did not make similar claims of their own when Germany was defeated.

I mean... yeah they kinda did. The entire colonial empire and several chunks at home. I'd even argue that the carving up of the Ottomans actually managed to outdo the absurdly large annexation from Brest-Litovsk.

uhm, no? Germany did not set out to murder either Russia or France

Yes actually they did, at least in Russia's case. It's somewhat clear in the leadup to war that they want to knock Russia down a peg, and becomes perfectly clear during the negotiations with Trostky and all.
 

StephenT

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Really, nice strawman. I never said Serbia was holding out on anyone, I said they were not being "Very generous" (quoted words, not my idea). I said so because they rejected a demand that mattered, rather than rejecting Austria's demand for its shoes or whatever ancillary terms they cooked up. Hence they were, to me, generous at best but probably not even that.
Have you read the terms of Serbia's acceptance of the ultimatum?

They agreed to censor their own press to make it illegal to criticise Austria-Hungary. They agreed to close down any private organisations and political parties which Austria-Hungary claimed were hostile to its interests. They agreed to remove textbooks from schools and dismiss teachers from their jobs if they criticised Austria-Hungary. They agreed to dismiss any army officers or civil servants who were deemed to be anti-Austrian.

These were all things that Austria-Hungary had demanded from them. Do you honestly see them as 'ancillary terms'? More to the point, can you imagine world reaction if, for example, China issued such demands today to the Philippines, or Putin's Russia made similar demands on Poland?

Yet Serbia meekly agreed to them all.

When it came to the issue of the assassination, Serbia agreed to cooperate with Austria-Hungary in suppressing the 'subversive movement' behind the killings. They agreed to arrest the specific people named as suspects in the case (Tankosic and Ciganovich), as long as Austria-Hungary provided the evidence giving reasonable grounds for their arrest, as is normal for an extradition case. They agreed to investigate the people who allowed the assassins to cross the frontier, and try and punish them as appropriate.

The one demand they didn't agree to completely was allowing the Austro-Hungarian police to come into Serbia to investigate the assassination plot and make arrests and hold trials on their own authority. They said, apologetically, that this would be against their constitution, but they were ready to hold investigations and stage trials themselves, and would keep the Austro-Hungarian police informed of everything they found out.

That was the "rejection" that was apparently sufficiently serious as to justify four years of war and over ten million dead.

Again, imagine if the FBI sent investigators to the Kremlin tomorrow, claiming they were investigating Russian involvement in the recent email scandals; and they made it clear that they expected to be able to arrest anybody up to and including Putin himself, and take him back to Washington DC for a trial. Do you think the Russians would happily welcome them in and give them carte blanche? Or would they object that this was a violation of their sovereignty? (Or if you prefer, imagine Iraqi police turning up in the Pentagon and the White House in the USA, claiming to be conducting an investigation into war crimes in Iraq.)

So basically the Serbian response to the ten points of the ultimatum was 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) Yes 4) Yes 5) Yes 6) We can't do exactly that but we'll do the best we can under our constitution 7) Yes 8) Yes 9) Yes 10) Yes.

Even Kaiser Wilhelm's initial reaction was that the Serbian acceptance of 95% of the ultimatum meant that there was now no excuse for war. (Although he was disappointed, not relieved; and went on to add that the Austrian troops should invade Serbia anyway, just to make a point and ensure that the Serbs did what they'd promised to do.)
 
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demanvanwezel

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I mean... yeah they kinda did. The entire colonial empire and several chunks at home. I'd even argue that the carving up of the Ottomans actually managed to outdo the absurdly large annexation from Brest-Litovsk.



Yes actually they did, at least in Russia's case. It's somewhat clear in the leadup to war that they want to knock Russia down a peg, and becomes perfectly clear during the negotiations with Trostky and all.

well of course, literally everyone in europe was scared of russia getting it's shit together

it wasn't called the juggernaut for nothing

we may look at WW1 russia today as a giant on clay feet but at the time people were scared
they knew it had severe problems after the russo-japanese war and the revolution but they also knew that it had the potential of being a real superpower
and russia was improving in those years, laying new railroads and such in the west (which could be used for faster mobilisation)

so yeah I can believe that germany said: we're going to take this land away from you now so you're not that scary anymore
one has to only look at what happened nearly 30 years later to see to see that the other powers were absolutely right to be scared of russia
 
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Kovax

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One point about the demands on Serbia -

They were intended to be refused, because ongoing issues with Serbian terrorists had made it pretty obvious that the Serbian government had either no ability or no interest (or both) in addressing the problem, and there was supposedly evidence of high level support for it. The idea was to invade and clean out the nest of vipers, whether the Serbian government wanted it or not. In the process, occupying Serbia and setting up a more amenable puppet government would probably have been the result, not an outright conquest of land. It was certainly "aggression", but in the form of an overly harsh response to a very real threat and a lackluster initial reply by Serbia.

In other words, when someone breaks into your house with a gun to rob it, and you shoot them and steal their shoes, two wrongs do not make a right, but you can't blame it solely on the home owner who was protecting his house. The severity of the response may not have been completely appropriate, but would probably have been considered legally "justified", except for stealing the robber's shoes afterwards. Austria was clearly working that shady area between victim and aggressor.

Germany was staring at the high probability of an eventual war with both France and Russia (at least in part because of French desire to regain A-L), and while their preemptive declaration of war was clearly an illegal move (especially going through neutral Belgium), it was not without a perceived pressing need. Whether that perception was accurate or not is very debatable, but it's pretty obvious that it wasn't done purely for expansionist reasons (although that probably factored into it to some degree). In other words, clearly guilty, but with extenuating circumstances that reduce the degree of guilt. We can thank French and Russian policies for a lot of the extenuating circumstances, although they in turn had their own justifications. There was plenty of blame to share between practically all involved (probably not Belgium), even though Germany almost certainly deserves the largest slice of the stinking brown pie.

Since the victors get to write the history books, Germany was held almost entirely to blame, yet Austria-Hungary was dismantled and cut up as a result, with Hungary losing nearly 60% of the country, considerably harsher terms than what Germany suffered. We can see who got punished the hardest, regardless of who got blamed, because it was "expedient" for French foreign policy at the moment. So, apparently France isn't considered "guilty" for stealing the robber's accomplice's shoes afterwards, because France donated them to its own friends.