Germany! Who can form it? How is it formed? What would it look like?

[Hemothep]

The main problem I see in Vicky2 is that there aren't real consequences for deviating from the OTL. The German Empire forged by Bismarck was almost the smallest it could have been (Alsace-Lorrain wasn't really necessary, it just needed a win against a common enemy in a war).
Making Germany bigger should easily be possible, as it was historically, but there should be significant downsides to doing this.

 

[schnizzle]

The main problem I see in Vicky2 is that there aren't real consequences for deviating from the OTL. The German Empire forged by Bismarck was almost the smallest it could have been (Alsace-Lorrain wasn't really necessary, it just needed a win against a common enemy in a war).
Making Germany bigger should easily be possible, as it was historically, but there should be significant downsides to doing this.

This is something almost all PDX titles suffer from. Eu4 currently does it best with their devastation / prosperity system but Vicky 3 has the chance to do it even better. Also pops finally have the chance to solve the issue of overly abstract manpower in hoi4 and way too easily regenerating retinues in the CK games. Realising about the consequences of ww1 (in my opinion the most jarring change to the status quo the world has ever seen) it should be clear that after a big war it will take many years to recover. This should be modelled and be felt in every aspect of the country. Nudging the player towards being very careful about when to pick a fight with a nation of similar strength

 

[Buttons12345]

Nah, you're right. I rescind my objection.

Also to Buttons12345 suggestion I have to say that countries giving up land voluntarily is something that I always missed. NL giving up Luxembourg for whatever reasons, preferebly gaining something else, but intimidation works as well, would be really cool. You should also be able to bribe countries or threaten them into giving up land but still giving them money so it looks a bit more like a deal and less like a robbery or something similar to that. Might fit into this hybrid of gunboat diplomacy and economics that the 19th century is famous for

I think gunboat diplomacy (or more generally aggressive diplomacy) is a mechanic that Victoria 3 really needs. Yes forcing minor nations into unequal trade agreements, sphering, or turning them into satellites, but even civilized countries. Perhaps have diplomatic intimidation options that increase threat and potentially (Germany won't be intimidated by Denmark) improve deal improvement threshold. I think the best way would be to have some sort of intimidation option to any diplomatic offer, and if you have nearby military units it will increase acceptance threshold based on the size of the force and the disparity and national power. If Germany stations 120,000 soldiers on the Dutch border and surrounds the Netherlands with its navy before sending its offer the Netherlands are much more likely to accept.

I would also be interested in seeing actual ultimatums that don't force war. Using the above example, putting all those forces around the Netherlands might add +80 to the request to surrender Luxemburg, however if Germany/NGF makes it an ultimatum it is more like +160 but if the offer is refused and Germany doesn't declare war in a set period of time (casus belli could just be "ultimatum") than they take a big prestige penalty and piss off nationalistic pops for backing down.

All of these however should massively raise threat when used on major European countries, and raise threat (albeit a lot less) when used on outside nations. If NGF mobilizes its army, surrounds the Netherlands, and gives them an ultimatum to hand over Luxemburg France should be so threatened they might immediately declare war regardless of the outcome of the German demands, while even Russia, Austria, Denmark, Belgium, and Switzerland are deeply concerned.

 

[demanvanwezel]

a couple of corrections to ideas here
1) the offer for denmark to join the NGF wasn't only rejected because they weren't germans but also because it was feared that US and brittain would disagree due to the danish virgin islands (later the US virgin islands) and because of iceland which could form an excellent naval base to attack scappa flow, the homebase of the highseas fleet, also the russians were traditional danish allies and might take umbrage at it's removal

2) bismarck promised to think about supporting french annexation of luxembourgh in exchange for neutrallity during the brother's war, annexing it directly afterwards could trigger war prematurilly (the later crisis over luxembourgh could easily have led to war between france and prussia but france backed down, this time)

3) the main reason bismarck didn't want austria in wasn't because of austria being prussia's rival but because austria was catholic, as a protestant bismarck thought that the new german state had already enough catholics thank you very much (with german confederation austria (roughly austria + czechia + slovenia) included catholics would be in the majority), this might seem weird to us today but in the 19th century the old catholic-protestant rivalry was still alive and well, bismarck even started a culture war against the catholics after germany was united (search for kulturkampf)

 

[chief117]

Not gona lie forming germany is super satisfying in vicky 2, I think germany deserves they own expansion after launch, I don't think doing details now its the best idea, i want to see all this but after when they have time to do it i will gladly pay for it 5x.

 

[Stein14]

Not gona lie forming germany is super satisfying in vicky 2, I think germany deserves they own expansion after launch, I don't think doing details now its the best idea, i want to see all this but after when they have time to do it i will gladly pay for it 5x.

I'm there. As a German, I would weigh every expansion for Germany in gold.

Three Hurrahs For Germany!​

 

[Buttons12345]

The main problem I see in Vicky2 is that there aren't real consequences for deviating from the OTL. The German Empire forged by Bismarck was almost the smallest it could have been (Alsace-Lorrain wasn't really necessary, it just needed a win against a common enemy in a war).
Making Germany bigger should easily be possible, as it was historically, but there should be significant downsides to doing this.

I mean threat, and threat should have some lasting impact. If Germany is huge, threatening, and holds your cores you should always be ready to invade them when they show signs of weakness. If greater Germany forms France should never lose its threatened opinion of Germany until it retakes Alsace or Germany collapses. Likewise if Russia has a giant Germany on its border it should be threatened until it has martial or industrial superiority or Germany collapses. Same with Italy. Greater Germany should have half of Europe hating it on principle and the other half hating it out of fear.

 

[schnizzle]

Greater Germany should have half of Europe hating it on principle and the other half hating it out of fear.

The web of alliances each of the ways for the formation of Germany discussed in this thread can create is very interesting to me. I can imagine a few neutral middle powers being quite friendly to a super- Germany. But those would not go as far as military cooperation. In order to acquire allies of both fighting strength and the willingness to go to war in the first place decision makers in Vienna or Berlin will have to offer concessions. A Habsburg emperor with no colonies, naval ambitions in the north sea or any other ambitions off the continent might approach Britain which at that point wanted to focus on business on their island and the colonies so basically just away from mainland Europe. If the Crimean war doesn't turn Britain and France into allies this alliance should happen. Also Spain before it turns inward after losing against the Americans might be a choice although obviously not a very potent one. Austria, if it supported Russia in the Crimean war will probably maintain that cooperation even after forming Germany. Sure Russia might feel threatened but they might come to some sort of agreement if Austria, now focussed on the German regions, offers Russia more control over the Balkans or even Galicia. However Austria intervening in the Crimean war is laughably unrealistic. But hey, it's the players choice. Prussian great Germany doesn't have many options as well. Might sway Italy by giving them Trentino and Slovenia and a free hand over the Balkan. Overall the alliance situation looks dire for greater-Germany anyway. War makes strange bedfellows however and maybe the circumstances of a war might bring them back to the ottomans or Bulgaria or maybe something completely different.

Also I noticed that depending on who forms it, the minor led Germany, arguably the smallest of all possible Germanies can potentially ally with whoever they want. So if correctly implemented this might be a direct tradeoff between territory size and strength of foreign relations

 

[panda_Express12]

Same with Italy. Greater Germany should have half of Europe hating it on principle and the other half hating it out of fear.

This. I would go so far to say that Greater Germany should almost always cause a coalition of Europe's great powers declaring war.

 

[WARenie]

I actually want at least some path to keep federation more loose (as some kind of big alliance, not one tag country) or not joining it at all without these nationalist rebels overthrowing government and offering local german power to annex you.
How else could i bring economical glory to Free City of Hamburg or Frankfurt?

 

[Woifee]

This. I would go so far to say that Greater Germany should almost always cause a coalition of Europe's great powers declaring war.

Not necessarily. If such a state has no naval ambitions UK would propably love it as an ally against Russia whom UK had some serious issues with.

 

[Buttons12345]

My take on forming Germany

Mandatory (must be controlled directly or controlled by satellites or spheres for Germany to form in any fashion, all are annexed as cores)

• All of modern Germany
• Silesia
• Pomerania

Optional (If controlled directly or controlled by satellites or spheres when Germany forms they are annexed as cores)

• Rest of Prussia
• Northern Schleswig
• Austria
• Czechia/Bohemia-Moravia
• Luxembourg
• Alsace-Lorraine
• Trentino

Extraordinary (If controlled directly or controlled by satellites (not just spheres) when Germany forms they are annexed as cores)

• Switzerland
• German majority regions of Netherlands and Belgium

Thus greatest Germany can be absolutely massive and unite pretty much every major group of Germans as core parts of their nation with the exception of the Baltic Germans (who I might consider in category 3) and the scattered groups in the Balkans and further east. At the same time forming Greatest Germany would be extremely difficult and would antagonize almost everyone and some populations (Swiss) may not even want to be part of Germany and just get their arm twisted until they agree.

Also Greater Frankish Empire with northern and central Italy as well as Catalonia and the Benelux countries as cores.