This post is a very long standalone version of two comments I made in this thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...sse-nassou-and-bavaria.1477471/#post-27584501 about what a German minor campaign would look like. I also want to use this thread to suggest Germany flavour and formation paths.
First, let’s ascertain what kind of states there are in Victoria that should be able to form Germany. Despite holding German territory and having a seat in the German Confederation, the Netherlands and Denmark should for cultural and nationalistic reasons realistically be excluded from forming Germany. That leaves Prussia, the Austrian Empire or Austria-Hungary later, the mid-sized German kingdoms like Saxony, Bavaria and Wurttemberg and the small minors like Anhalt, Hesse and Baden.
Austria
Now we can have three different flavours of Germany. The Prussia to North German Confederation to Germany route is already well-established. I won’t go into that here. Let’s start with the Austrians and why an Austrian-led Germany would not be called Holy Roman Empire, like some people suggested here. Re-establishing the holy Roman empire after you unilaterally dissolved it would be one of the stupidest things an Austrian emperor could do. People always think Napoleon dissolved the hre but it was Francis I of Habsburg. Francis could dissolve it without anyone caring if that was unconstitutional, because not even the conservatives of his time cared. They wouldn’t 40 years later when the world has become much more liberal and nationalistic. Both opposites to the ancient multi-ethnic feudal HRE. That title is buried and should not return. What Austria (also Bavaria and Wurttemberg) should be able to do is form the south German confederation as opposed to Prussia's north German one. After a Victory over Prussia in a war Austria would be left as the last major German state standing and therefore the logical solution to the Kaiserquestion. Now Austria is probably the most conservative German state and most liberal 1848 revolutionaries would oppose it. Those might rally against you and present their own counter-candidate. Austria isn’t that military minded and should rather convince the other states to join diplomatically. Bavaria is close to you anyway and Ludwig II will probably swear fealty for a nice sum, while Saxony can be bought by giving them back their cores which Prussia annexed after Napoleons defeat. The rest of the German states will fold once they see no point in rebelling against the Austrians anymore. Now that leaves Austria with three problems. Liberal opposition demanding reform, the inclusion of Prussia into the Reich and the status of your transleithanian provinces. The first thing is a tricky political gamble that will probably force you to make concessions to the liberals. The status of Prussia is probably even more difficult to get right. The Austrians can’t just break Hohenzollern control over the Brandenburg-Prussia area. Especially not when uniting Germany diplomatically. Even after winning militarily against the Prussians I doubt they could realistically force the Hohenzollerns out. Maybe annex the Rhenish parts of that Kingdom as well as Silesia, return land to Saxony and free Mecklenburg and Pomerania to the new Austrian-led German Reich. Everything east of Stettin is impossible for them to control at this point. And Hungary is a problem, too. Would the Habsburgs just split off their non-German possessions? A Habsburg on the Hungarian throne would have it very hard without direct Austrian protection, but it might be the best course of action, as the Germans would not want all that land and all these people in their people’s state. Austria should have the choice to either release it as one Hungary or multiple different states and if they want to hold on to Slovenia, all of Bohemia. Or maybe find some constitutional middle ground of ruling over Hungary in some sort of Dual-Monarchy? German-Hungarian Empire? Don’t think that would work, but let’s keep the options open.
German States
The third option is one of the German minors. This was certainly a possibility back in the time, mostly due to foreign powers fearing Prussia become too big. And while it would be absolutely ridiculous for the really small states to form Germany (imagine what a fluke of history a unification of Germany by the state and house of waldeck-pyrmont would be) at least Bavaria, Saxony, Wurttemberg and maybe Hannover would be in a position to maybe unite the Germans behind them if Austria and Prussia majorly screw up their games. Maybe the German confederation or the 1848 Frankfurt parliament could offer the German crown to a middle power like Bavaria which then would absorb every state in which the 1848 revolution succeeded and give a claim on the rest of Germany as some sort of third major candidate against the big two. A people candidate. Alternative history, yes, but certainly an interesting campaign for the German minors that might lead to a liberal constitutional Kaiserreich headed by someone that isn't the Hohenzollern or Habsburgs. The other path to achieving this is by having foreign powers support their candidates if Prussia and Austria for some reason struggle to achieve unity. If prior to the foundation of the North German Confederation the Prussians lose a war against a foreign power or are in some other way crippled, this wouldn’t just end the Kaiserfrage outright. It would much rather give Nations like France and Russia the opportunity to help their favourites in order to later gain political leverage. This would then once again have to be done diplomatically as I doubt even a France-backed Bavaria would be able to conquer everyone else. This would however make for a nice situation in which Bavaria and a Russian-backed Saxony directly woo German states to recognize them as the ideal choice to elect Kaiser in a renewed version of the Frankfurt parliament.
Flag
I recognize that these suggestions I made are quite extensive, too much so for the base game, and are much closer to the summary of an alternative history scenario. Nevertheless I think all of these states should be able to form Germany like Prussia can albeit with a different flag (black and white are Prussia's colours, white and red the hansa. Both north German) for Austria black-red-yellow doesn't work either imo as it's the colours of the liberal 1848 revolt and the Freikorps Lützow before that. Prussia and Austrian should be the only countries that don't use black-red-yellow. For Austria suggest sticking to the black and yellow colour scheme, it also doesn't have to be a tribar. Another option for Austria could be Black-Yellow-Red, to show that they added the colour of the revolution to their already existing imperial colours in a compromise towards their new subjects.
All other German Empire variation, founded by other states, should have the current German tricolour as their flag with the coat of arms of the founding house in the center, or the German eagle or just the tricolour. This is because a Germany that is formed around one of these smaller states would probably see the Emperor as just a figurehead that was nescessary to unite the Germans around. They would be awarded the honour of having their crest in the center but the main power lies with the German people, therefore the flag should be just the current tricolour.
Name and Map Colour
The German empire should rather be called German Reich, like in hoi4, as empire is a bit of a shaky translation of Reich. Empire implies imperialism and colonies, at least expansionism and also a monarchy, while Deutsches Reich means more something akin to "realm of the Germans,,. The Weimar Republic was officially named deutsches Reich even though they were a largely demilitarised, non-colonial Republic.
I also wonder, as a South German, if an Austrian-led or south-German-led Germany would even call itself Deutschland. Deutsch/Teutsch comes from Teuton, the Teutonic order and the tribe of Teutons that settled near Prussia. I can imagine them using Allemanisch or Germanisch instead of Deutsch. Although a counterargument to this would be that the people of Germany used the term Deutsch for centuries to describe themselves so the Austrians might not want to change it to avoid confusion.
I furthermore advocate for different Germanies having different map colours. This was already discussed today in another thread in regards to Portugal and Russia that depending on their government form should have different map colours. For Germany I'd suggest them being lighter shade of grey if they are formed by anyone but Prussia. In my opinion the dark grey that is most often used for Germany in strategy games does fit the Hohenzollern and the ww2 history of the nation, but just clashes with Austria or let's say Bavaria or Wurttemberg uniting the country.
Thank you for reading all of this, in case anyone came this far
First, let’s ascertain what kind of states there are in Victoria that should be able to form Germany. Despite holding German territory and having a seat in the German Confederation, the Netherlands and Denmark should for cultural and nationalistic reasons realistically be excluded from forming Germany. That leaves Prussia, the Austrian Empire or Austria-Hungary later, the mid-sized German kingdoms like Saxony, Bavaria and Wurttemberg and the small minors like Anhalt, Hesse and Baden.
Austria
Now we can have three different flavours of Germany. The Prussia to North German Confederation to Germany route is already well-established. I won’t go into that here. Let’s start with the Austrians and why an Austrian-led Germany would not be called Holy Roman Empire, like some people suggested here. Re-establishing the holy Roman empire after you unilaterally dissolved it would be one of the stupidest things an Austrian emperor could do. People always think Napoleon dissolved the hre but it was Francis I of Habsburg. Francis could dissolve it without anyone caring if that was unconstitutional, because not even the conservatives of his time cared. They wouldn’t 40 years later when the world has become much more liberal and nationalistic. Both opposites to the ancient multi-ethnic feudal HRE. That title is buried and should not return. What Austria (also Bavaria and Wurttemberg) should be able to do is form the south German confederation as opposed to Prussia's north German one. After a Victory over Prussia in a war Austria would be left as the last major German state standing and therefore the logical solution to the Kaiserquestion. Now Austria is probably the most conservative German state and most liberal 1848 revolutionaries would oppose it. Those might rally against you and present their own counter-candidate. Austria isn’t that military minded and should rather convince the other states to join diplomatically. Bavaria is close to you anyway and Ludwig II will probably swear fealty for a nice sum, while Saxony can be bought by giving them back their cores which Prussia annexed after Napoleons defeat. The rest of the German states will fold once they see no point in rebelling against the Austrians anymore. Now that leaves Austria with three problems. Liberal opposition demanding reform, the inclusion of Prussia into the Reich and the status of your transleithanian provinces. The first thing is a tricky political gamble that will probably force you to make concessions to the liberals. The status of Prussia is probably even more difficult to get right. The Austrians can’t just break Hohenzollern control over the Brandenburg-Prussia area. Especially not when uniting Germany diplomatically. Even after winning militarily against the Prussians I doubt they could realistically force the Hohenzollerns out. Maybe annex the Rhenish parts of that Kingdom as well as Silesia, return land to Saxony and free Mecklenburg and Pomerania to the new Austrian-led German Reich. Everything east of Stettin is impossible for them to control at this point. And Hungary is a problem, too. Would the Habsburgs just split off their non-German possessions? A Habsburg on the Hungarian throne would have it very hard without direct Austrian protection, but it might be the best course of action, as the Germans would not want all that land and all these people in their people’s state. Austria should have the choice to either release it as one Hungary or multiple different states and if they want to hold on to Slovenia, all of Bohemia. Or maybe find some constitutional middle ground of ruling over Hungary in some sort of Dual-Monarchy? German-Hungarian Empire? Don’t think that would work, but let’s keep the options open.
German States
The third option is one of the German minors. This was certainly a possibility back in the time, mostly due to foreign powers fearing Prussia become too big. And while it would be absolutely ridiculous for the really small states to form Germany (imagine what a fluke of history a unification of Germany by the state and house of waldeck-pyrmont would be) at least Bavaria, Saxony, Wurttemberg and maybe Hannover would be in a position to maybe unite the Germans behind them if Austria and Prussia majorly screw up their games. Maybe the German confederation or the 1848 Frankfurt parliament could offer the German crown to a middle power like Bavaria which then would absorb every state in which the 1848 revolution succeeded and give a claim on the rest of Germany as some sort of third major candidate against the big two. A people candidate. Alternative history, yes, but certainly an interesting campaign for the German minors that might lead to a liberal constitutional Kaiserreich headed by someone that isn't the Hohenzollern or Habsburgs. The other path to achieving this is by having foreign powers support their candidates if Prussia and Austria for some reason struggle to achieve unity. If prior to the foundation of the North German Confederation the Prussians lose a war against a foreign power or are in some other way crippled, this wouldn’t just end the Kaiserfrage outright. It would much rather give Nations like France and Russia the opportunity to help their favourites in order to later gain political leverage. This would then once again have to be done diplomatically as I doubt even a France-backed Bavaria would be able to conquer everyone else. This would however make for a nice situation in which Bavaria and a Russian-backed Saxony directly woo German states to recognize them as the ideal choice to elect Kaiser in a renewed version of the Frankfurt parliament.
Flag
I recognize that these suggestions I made are quite extensive, too much so for the base game, and are much closer to the summary of an alternative history scenario. Nevertheless I think all of these states should be able to form Germany like Prussia can albeit with a different flag (black and white are Prussia's colours, white and red the hansa. Both north German) for Austria black-red-yellow doesn't work either imo as it's the colours of the liberal 1848 revolt and the Freikorps Lützow before that. Prussia and Austrian should be the only countries that don't use black-red-yellow. For Austria suggest sticking to the black and yellow colour scheme, it also doesn't have to be a tribar. Another option for Austria could be Black-Yellow-Red, to show that they added the colour of the revolution to their already existing imperial colours in a compromise towards their new subjects.
All other German Empire variation, founded by other states, should have the current German tricolour as their flag with the coat of arms of the founding house in the center, or the German eagle or just the tricolour. This is because a Germany that is formed around one of these smaller states would probably see the Emperor as just a figurehead that was nescessary to unite the Germans around. They would be awarded the honour of having their crest in the center but the main power lies with the German people, therefore the flag should be just the current tricolour.
Name and Map Colour
The German empire should rather be called German Reich, like in hoi4, as empire is a bit of a shaky translation of Reich. Empire implies imperialism and colonies, at least expansionism and also a monarchy, while Deutsches Reich means more something akin to "realm of the Germans,,. The Weimar Republic was officially named deutsches Reich even though they were a largely demilitarised, non-colonial Republic.
I also wonder, as a South German, if an Austrian-led or south-German-led Germany would even call itself Deutschland. Deutsch/Teutsch comes from Teuton, the Teutonic order and the tribe of Teutons that settled near Prussia. I can imagine them using Allemanisch or Germanisch instead of Deutsch. Although a counterargument to this would be that the people of Germany used the term Deutsch for centuries to describe themselves so the Austrians might not want to change it to avoid confusion.
I furthermore advocate for different Germanies having different map colours. This was already discussed today in another thread in regards to Portugal and Russia that depending on their government form should have different map colours. For Germany I'd suggest them being lighter shade of grey if they are formed by anyone but Prussia. In my opinion the dark grey that is most often used for Germany in strategy games does fit the Hohenzollern and the ww2 history of the nation, but just clashes with Austria or let's say Bavaria or Wurttemberg uniting the country.
Thank you for reading all of this, in case anyone came this far
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