Is there a way that i can have high ic as germany without shitting out? To counter this, i usually upgrade all my provinces to 4 AA(is this sufficient enough to hurt strategic bombers and protect industries?) When i finish upgrading AA to 4, i stop all provincial upgrades in a province with 4 AA and work on coastal defenses or giving the west wall some land fortifications. Whenever i do this, i usually feel a bit underteched in air(i usually upgrade tanks and infantry during pre-war period). My question is basically, how can i keep a high ic as germany without having to put the entire country in provincial upgrade mode?
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The AA guns may be the problem. The provincial upgrade costs are fairly high, and that IC could be diverted into research and fighter production with similar results. I have found that if you set up about 20 fighter squadrons, deployed in 5 4-squadron stacks in a north-south row across the central German provinces which have no AA guns, the Allies will eventually stop trying to stratbomb you after their bombers are shot down.
I have actually played several games as Germany without doing any province upgrades until the outbreak of war (occasionally factory construction in provinces which begin with less than 10 IC), and then only fortifying beaches, the river crossings in Poland, and the old Maginot Line provinces, guarding all of these with stacks of 2-3 infantry or infantry/engineer or infantry/artillery divisions. These will repel all but the most dedicated Allied sea invasions, and those can usually be allowed to proceed until you can bring in a few armored divisions freed up from other operations.
I have actually played several games as Germany without doing any province upgrades until the outbreak of war (occasionally factory construction in provinces which begin with less than 10 IC), and then only fortifying beaches, the river crossings in Poland, and the old Maginot Line provinces, guarding all of these with stacks of 2-3 infantry or infantry/engineer or infantry/artillery divisions. These will repel all but the most dedicated Allied sea invasions, and those can usually be allowed to proceed until you can bring in a few armored divisions freed up from other operations.
Reply
Hi, I find the complete opposite. Playing as Germany, pre war, I find it necessary to use up IC, as Germany just does not have the natural resources to sustain a high IC and keep your resource stockpile ticking over, despite appointing the Minister who increases Supplies by 20% So I always dampen down the IC`s by buiding AA`s in all provinces and researching the tech necessary to give them teeth.
Hi, I find the complete opposite. Playing as Germany, pre war, I find it necessary to use up IC, as Germany just does not have the natural resources to sustain a high IC and keep your resource stockpile ticking over, despite appointing the Minister who increases Supplies by 20% So I always dampen down the IC`s by buiding AA`s in all provinces and researching the tech necessary to give them teeth.
On very hard (-20% ICs) I find there is little problem maintaining resource levels once you get used to the appropriate trades. Unfortunately I can't really comment on defending Germany as a I never have to. Even on Gotterdamerung I have totally pasted the opposition, so my advice may be of limited help. My experience of strategic bombing has always been that fighter ambushes and micro-management are the best defence. This always works for me and I was successful moderately quickly even against the Gotterdamerung mixed fighter and strategic bomber uber-stacks.
As an example against a stack of 8 strategic bombers (1944 models), I watched in advance into Germany and then dropped a 6 stack of FW190a straight in front of it (so the bombers were attacking) and whilst that fight went on I moved 2 other stacks of 6 FW190a into provinces on their return route. None of them got home. The best defence is total destruction of attacking units, if you do that they never come back again.
As an example against a stack of 8 strategic bombers (1944 models), I watched in advance into Germany and then dropped a 6 stack of FW190a straight in front of it (so the bombers were attacking) and whilst that fight went on I moved 2 other stacks of 6 FW190a into provinces on their return route. None of them got home. The best defence is total destruction of attacking units, if you do that they never come back again.
Reply
Yes, but thats my point precisely, on very hard (-20%IC) you dont have to worry about dampaning down your economy, you have enough resources, taking into account trades (which I am very good at, I always have 99999 of everything by 1938) On 106C vanilla N/N and after researching all the relevent techs to improve your economy, and without having annaxed anyone yet, you are hard pressed to maintain maximume resources as you have too much IC`s. hence building AA`s or fortressess.
Regards
Barry
Yes, but thats my point precisely, on very hard (-20%IC) you dont have to worry about dampaning down your economy, you have enough resources, taking into account trades (which I am very good at, I always have 99999 of everything by 1938) On 106C vanilla N/N and after researching all the relevent techs to improve your economy, and without having annaxed anyone yet, you are hard pressed to maintain maximume resources as you have too much IC`s. hence building AA`s or fortressess.
Regards
Barry
Why would you want to have 99999 of everything? Germany produces so much coal that you don't have to have a large or any stockpile. Steel becomes somewhat of a problem after 43 but you can switch ministers or invade Sweden to solve that. The anschluss and the czech events will give you plenty of steel before that. On normal/ normal, I only build AA after the anschluss along my borders upto level 5 and I start fortyfying the beaches after Vichy. Only the AA is partly because of the need to reduce IC's, since the difference between resource input and output is at it's greatest at that point but I build coastal fortresses because I think it's much more MP-effective than having large garrisons and/ or reserves.yrrabnhoj said:
Reply to Robert
Hi Robert, in all my games and no matter which country I play as, I have strived to reach maximum resource stockpiles, which can be achieved with micromanagement of the market. It is a safety first strategy which I like to use, sure in some cases it is overkill, but I have never run out of resources. It is the one area of the game I am good at?
I have found in most of my games expept the first one were I DOW`d early in the game, since I started playing as Germany, that you reach a point, normaly during 1939 (this works on the assumption that you have not declared war yet), when you have to many IC`s and therefore, will start to eat into your resource stockpile before WWII starts in earnest. You can loose rubber and steel like no tommorow, even balancing coal for rubber at 4:1 you still loose a lot. I prefer to hang on to my stockpiles, until after war starts and it is no longer possible. After all historicaly there are a lot of examples as to wars being lost due to lack of resources.
That is why I build AA and fortifications to dampen down the economy for a while. My personal priorities when I start a new game are: Research #1 Resources #2 then and only then, unit production. Just my style of play I guess.
Regards
Barry
Hi Robert, in all my games and no matter which country I play as, I have strived to reach maximum resource stockpiles, which can be achieved with micromanagement of the market. It is a safety first strategy which I like to use, sure in some cases it is overkill, but I have never run out of resources. It is the one area of the game I am good at?
I have found in most of my games expept the first one were I DOW`d early in the game, since I started playing as Germany, that you reach a point, normaly during 1939 (this works on the assumption that you have not declared war yet), when you have to many IC`s and therefore, will start to eat into your resource stockpile before WWII starts in earnest. You can loose rubber and steel like no tommorow, even balancing coal for rubber at 4:1 you still loose a lot. I prefer to hang on to my stockpiles, until after war starts and it is no longer possible. After all historicaly there are a lot of examples as to wars being lost due to lack of resources.
That is why I build AA and fortifications to dampen down the economy for a while. My personal priorities when I start a new game are: Research #1 Resources #2 then and only then, unit production. Just my style of play I guess.
Regards
Barry
I can understand that because I used to do this as well , until I realised that coal is not a critical resource for Germany. Unless it's being converted at the poorest ratios Germany shouldn't have any coal problems. Since most of the usual victims for Germany also don't have a coal problem you can top of your coal stockpiles quite easily during war.
Also, if you put in 3:1 trades for rubber before the supplies on the WM run out you can easily get away with that ratio since you have preference over other 3:1 bidders. These are larger than what I actually need to cover the additional IC of Austria and the Sudetenland. Leaving some 1:1 trades in the WM can also give you some extra rubber. They don't consume resources when they are not accepted and you don't have to keep an eye on the WM all the time to see if anything is left over.
, until I realised that coal is not a critical resource for Germany. Unless it's being converted at the poorest ratios Germany shouldn't have any coal problems. Since most of the usual victims for Germany also don't have a coal problem you can top of your coal stockpiles quite easily during war.Also, if you put in 3:1 trades for rubber before the supplies on the WM run out you can easily get away with that ratio since you have preference over other 3:1 bidders. These are larger than what I actually need to cover the additional IC of Austria and the Sudetenland. Leaving some 1:1 trades in the WM can also give you some extra rubber. They don't consume resources when they are not accepted and you don't have to keep an eye on the WM all the time to see if anything is left over.
Reply re resources
You have a point there, I am probably being too fussy with regard to resources, I remember when I played as the USA, I had resources stored everywere, on every single island and Greenland. I had enough to last a hundred years! :wacko: In my next game I will try to be a bit more flexable about it.
On a related topic which Minister do you prefer, the one that gives you +15% IC or the one who gives you +20% supplies? I normaly change to the later in 1937.
You have a point there, I am probably being too fussy with regard to resources, I remember when I played as the USA, I had resources stored everywere, on every single island and Greenland. I had enough to last a hundred years! :wacko: In my next game I will try to be a bit more flexable about it.
On a related topic which Minister do you prefer, the one that gives you +15% IC or the one who gives you +20% supplies? I normaly change to the later in 1937.
It all depends on the country you're playing. To Britain, for example, coal is the critical resources whereas you won't run out of rubber until somebody manages to completely shutdown your convoys or you loose Singapore. And it is possible to run out of resources as the US even if you load all your islands .
I usually keep the Administrative Genius until I have finished fortifiying the Atlantic Wall, which takes a while (level 5 fortresses on all beaches). I may switch to the Theoretical Scientist (+5% rockets, nukes and electronics) later, but that depends on how the war in the SU is going. If I need additional units I won't switch, although that doesn't happen very often . I usually don't research rockets and never nuclear techs before I have finished the industrial and electronics techtree so I have some catching up to do later. Haven't tried the +20 supplies minister as Germany yet so I can't really compare them, although '37 seems quite early. Then again, I only start building large amounts of troops until '38, but he may be a good alternative when barbarossa starts because of the supplies needed for reïnorcements.
.I usually keep the Administrative Genius until I have finished fortifiying the Atlantic Wall, which takes a while (level 5 fortresses on all beaches). I may switch to the Theoretical Scientist (+5% rockets, nukes and electronics) later, but that depends on how the war in the SU is going. If I need additional units I won't switch, although that doesn't happen very often
. I usually don't research rockets and never nuclear techs before I have finished the industrial and electronics techtree so I have some catching up to do later. Haven't tried the +20 supplies minister as Germany yet so I can't really compare them, although '37 seems quite early. Then again, I only start building large amounts of troops until '38, but he may be a good alternative when barbarossa starts because of the supplies needed for reïnorcements.
I always find that Coal is the limiting resource even as Germany but this is always due to expansion and the ultimately inadequate oil and rubber resources. It is this inability to acquire enough oil and rubber that makes the difference otherwise steel would be the limiting resource. It is perfectly possible to play the whole game through with resource issues being addressed via captured stockpiles although it is difficult to capture the right capital at the right time. The upper limit of 100,000 on resources can be extremely awkward as conquests can easily bring in several times this in quite a short period.
Yes I have found that a problem as well, just as I am close to maximum resources you get Luxenburg for example caving in to your demands and get a huge hit of coal and steel most of which goes to waste due to the limit. Timing seems to be the most critical area of the game if you are looking for an efficiant game plan, but then as in life, plans dont always go according to plan!
Robert Koop said:I usually keep the Administrative Genius until I have finished fortifiying the Atlantic Wall, which takes a while (level 5 fortresses on all beaches). I may switch to the Theoretical Scientist (+5% rockets, nukes and electronics) later, but that depends on how the war in the SU is going. If I need additional units I won't switch, although that doesn't happen very often
The key issue with ministers is that different ways of making more ICs available have different implications for resources. The normal view is that ministers with IC bonuses are the ones that give you more ICs. This isn't the only issue, any minister that reduces dissent also gives you ICs. In fact he gives you exactly the ICs covered by the dissent reduction and these ICs are resource free; they don't need additional resources. This is one reason for getting rid of the prince of terror as a first step in dealing with a resource shortage. Whilst he gives you a massive IC increase, he also gives you a dissent penalty and therefore he is wasting resources. If you look at production as getting as much as you can from a limited resource income then the selection of ministers question changes. The focus is then on ministers that reduce wasted production (lower dissent) and ministers that increase productivity without consuming resources (+20% supplies).
yrrabnhoj said:Yes I have found that a problem as well, just as I am close to maximum resources you get Luxenburg for example caving in to your demands and get a huge hit of coal and steel most of which goes to waste due to the limit. Timing seems to be the most critical area of the game if you are looking for an efficiant game plan, but then as in life, plans dont always go according to plan!
That luxembourg thing is a beautiful 'gamey' trick for getting resources. I used it in my german mechanised AAR to restore coal just when it ran out. That gave me a huge boost.
Reply re Ministers/Resources
Hi, your point is a good one and one which was brought home to me last night when I changed Ministers around to suit the circumstances. As I have said in earlier posts I usualy use the Minister who give you +20% supplies over the one who gives you +15% IC, but I changed them both last night for the one who gives you -5% dissent bonus and got a better result than the other two. A case for horses for courses! This can work well for a country like Germany that hasn`t got any civilian leaders and would not be as practical to use playing as the USA for example. Thanks for explaning the mechanics.
Hi, your point is a good one and one which was brought home to me last night when I changed Ministers around to suit the circumstances. As I have said in earlier posts I usualy use the Minister who give you +20% supplies over the one who gives you +15% IC, but I changed them both last night for the one who gives you -5% dissent bonus and got a better result than the other two. A case for horses for courses! This can work well for a country like Germany that hasn`t got any civilian leaders and would not be as practical to use playing as the USA for example. Thanks for explaning the mechanics.
Agreed. When additional IC's simply cannot be sustained you're better of by trying to get as much out of the IC's that you can manage. Whether or not you should choose additional supplies over lower consumergood demand depends on the situation. Or, like yrrabnhoj says, a matter of horses for courses. Which makes these games (1+2) so much fun.
Another aspect I didn't mention earlier arises if you are being aggressive. Constant DOWs cost dissent and a need to spend ICs on dissent reduction. Since dissent reduction is based on the percentage of ICs rather than actual total this can be a good time to reduce total IC production. If you read my German mechanised AAR you will see that I provided considerable detail on minister selection on the overall effects achieveable. Not to mention a few equations.
Reply and Thanks to Kanitatian
Thanks for all your input, you have given me a lot of food for thought. I have just finished copying several of your posts from your links, to take home for some weekend reading and contemplation of grand stratergies. Also to add to my personal HOI reference manual.
I take my hat of (if I was wearing one ) to you for all the quality deduction and analysis that was put into your posts and walk-throughs. As an auditor I can imagine the amount and time you spent on them. Well done, but I guess it must have been at a time when Leicester City were going through the doldrums and you had time on your hands?
Regards
Barry
Thanks for all your input, you have given me a lot of food for thought. I have just finished copying several of your posts from your links, to take home for some weekend reading and contemplation of grand stratergies. Also to add to my personal HOI reference manual.
I take my hat of (if I was wearing one
) to you for all the quality deduction and analysis that was put into your posts and walk-throughs. As an auditor I can imagine the amount and time you spent on them. Well done, but I guess it must have been at a time when Leicester City were going through the doldrums and you had time on your hands? Regards
Barry
Thanks for all of your insight, everyone. However, i already implemented all of your suggestions before i created this thread(thats how elite i am ). My question was how i could keep up enough resources to always have about 50 ic in production and about 140-180 ic in research. I have been able to do this, however investing such massive amounts of ic by taking such a huge industrial capacity will only let me do this temporarily. I want to end up with basic tanks, dive bombers, and fighters with as many techs that bolster their abilities(when i use a conservative attitude to ic allocation, i usually end up with insufficient amounts or qualties for essential units). To sum it all up, is there a way to have enough ic without going through provincial upgrade at all?
). My question was how i could keep up enough resources to always have about 50 ic in production and about 140-180 ic in research. I have been able to do this, however investing such massive amounts of ic by taking such a huge industrial capacity will only let me do this temporarily. I want to end up with basic tanks, dive bombers, and fighters with as many techs that bolster their abilities(when i use a conservative attitude to ic allocation, i usually end up with insufficient amounts or qualties for essential units). To sum it all up, is there a way to have enough ic without going through provincial upgrade at all?
I can manage it easily but I have to pay attention to the world market ALOT. The market at times has a ton of resources that I need and I buy up as much as I can. By mid 1936, I can manage to top off my rubber stockpile (I think this is because no one is trading for it as they are using their own rubber surplus). Steel is also streaky but I find that when rubber is coming down that alot of steel is normally waiting for me so I trade for lots of steel. Eventually, steel becomes critical for me but I'll get Anschluss in 1938 which gives me a ton of resources to play with again and in 1939 the End of Czechoslovakia nets me more to top off my coal and steel. If my economy ever looks like it will tank on resources, I can always hit the emergency stockpile that is Luxembourg (so cheaty but I love it) but this is rare and I can normally manage without it.
When war starts I can manage okay with conquests but naturally rubber will eventually become critical unless I have managed a rapid advance through the Middle East, India, Burma and Siam to the happy rubberlands of British Malaya and the Dutch East Indies. Beating the Japanese to these areas is of prime importance if you want a self-sufficent economy.
Just watch the market closely and you can do well and remember to not fear depleting your coal stockpiles especially before Anschluss and End of Czechoslovakia event (you don't want to waste a single resource you get from them). In the early years, coal is not important except to get you other resources you are lacking.
When war starts I can manage okay with conquests but naturally rubber will eventually become critical unless I have managed a rapid advance through the Middle East, India, Burma and Siam to the happy rubberlands of British Malaya and the Dutch East Indies. Beating the Japanese to these areas is of prime importance if you want a self-sufficent economy.
Just watch the market closely and you can do well and remember to not fear depleting your coal stockpiles especially before Anschluss and End of Czechoslovakia event (you don't want to waste a single resource you get from them). In the early years, coal is not important except to get you other resources you are lacking.