Germany MP strategies?

[Alex_brunius]

Space Marines are strong, but people use them wrong. A good space Marines template is 10 HArm 10 Marines, its essentially a cheaper form of the 10 Mechanized 10 HArm divisions meant to stop tanks. I don't ban the Marine form just like I don't ban the Mechanized form.

The point of Space Marines is a general purpose division template that can replace your line infantry...
Your not going to afford replacing your line infantry with 10HARM+10Marine templates!

While it might have some use as a very expensive specialist unit to force rivercrossings and amphibious landings, it would be a horrible thing to use instead of line infantry since you could afford just a few of them leaving big holes in your lines.

It's also a big waste for everything that don't need the marine terrain bonuses ( like fighting in plains or other terrains without rivers ) since you combine the worst and so many marines dillute the valuable hardness & armor bonuses of HARM, as well as slow them down to minimum base speed of 4kph which combined with HARM terrain penalties means they are crawling.

It's also lacking in the soft attack department compared to it's cost.

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

The point of Space Marines is a general purpose division template that can replace your line infantry...
Your not going to afford replacing your line infantry with 10HARM+10Marine templates!

While it might have some use as a very expensive specialist unit to force rivercrossings and amphibious landings, it would be a horrible thing to use instead of line infantry since you could afford just a few of them leaving big holes in your lines.

It's also a big waste for everything that don't need the marine terrain bonuses ( like fighting in plains or other terrains without rivers ) since you combine the worst and so many marines dillute the valuable hardness & armor bonuses of HARM, as well as slow them down to minimum base speed of 4kph which combined with HARM terrain penalties means they are crawling.

It's also lacking in the soft attack department compared to it's cost.

If your general purpose infantry consist of 1 HTD and some marines and art, then youre probably an inexperienced player. Someone who knows what theyre doing will make that apparent to whoever uses that template.

No, the purpose of the 10 10 template that i outlined is to stop tanks, like i said. The infantry that hold your entire line are 22 width all infantry divisions. The divisions that push are your 40 or (sometimes) 20 width tanks.

 

[Dalwin]

Also paratroopers have another pesky annoying usage that if you paradrop to a province where a unit is retreating into you instantly overrun it.

Sniping tank divisions on speed 1 has never been easier...

Wouldn't that require that the province being retreated into be empty? If you are being attacked hard enough to force units to retreat and you don't have at least one division dug in one province behind the line, this would only be yet another way in which you can expect to suffer. With proper defensive tactics this should not be a problem.

A few of your other points do seem broken, however.

 

[Alex_brunius]

If your general purpose infantry consist of 1 HTD and some marines and art, then youre probably an inexperienced player. Someone who knows what theyre doing will make that apparent to whoever uses that template.

I agree.

No, the purpose of the 10 10 template that i outlined is to stop tanks, like i said.

Which means it's not a Space marine template in my understanding since the point of a space marine template is to replace your line infantry...

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

Which means it's not a Space marine template in my understanding since the point of a space marine template is to replace your line infantry...

Under most servers that have rules against space Marines, the 10 10 template I outlined would be banned. I believe they fit the general defenition.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Under most servers that have rules against space Marines, the 10 10 template I outlined would be banned. I believe they fit the general defenition.

Just because something is included in the same ban doesn't mean it's the same thing.

19 SHARM + 1 MAR or 10SPAA+ 5MAR would also both be banned, but that doesn't mean anyone would call these abominations a space marine...

 

[Secret Master]

Under most servers that have rules against space Marines, the 10 10 template I outlined would be banned. I believe they fit the general defenition.

Really? I mean, it's a decent division for certain kinds of work, but people ban that, too? It's not invincible.

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

Really? I mean, it's a decent division for certain kinds of work, but people ban that, too? It's not invincible.

It's the mixing of special forces with tanks that's banned. Some servers ban any infantry with tanks, but that's slightly less common.

 

[Secret Master]

It's the mixing of special forces with tanks that's banned. Some servers ban any infantry with tanks, but that's slightly less common.

So, would a division with MAR, 1 battalion of Shermans, and some artillery be banned, too?

I take your word for it, but that's a bit odd. I mean, the USMC used Shermans in the Pacific. It's more historical than some of the crap we use around here.

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

So, would a division with MAR, 1 battalion of Shermans, and some artillery be banned, too?

I take your word for it, but that's a bit odd. I mean, the USMC used Shermans in the Pacific. It's more historical than some of the crap we use around here.

That's exactly my argument as well. The USA mixed tanks with all types of infantry extensively, and it's not exactly op in this game. I played on one server that limited divisions to only having 2 pieces of any sort of Artillery in them. So one AA gun, one Art then you're capped. Some people just have some weird rules.

 

[Fulmen]

Really? I mean, it's a decent division for certain kinds of work, but people ban that, too? It's not invincible.

So, would a division with MAR, 1 battalion of Shermans, and some artillery be banned, too?

Well it's mostly the breakthrough values coupled with the terrain bonuses that are the problem. You have to also remember that any country going for HARM can get 1943 HARM by 1940-41. That can make for some very strong divisions that while not counterable, will definitely cause crying amongst most players. After all there's only about 20-30 people that still even semi-actively play this game that really know how to counter templates like that. And by that I don't mean theory-crafting outside the game, but the ability to actually notice what the enemy is doing in-game and adjusting their build accordingly. Not many people do that.

It's the mixing of special forces with tanks that's banned. Some servers ban any infantry with tanks, but that's slightly less common.

I allow LARM and LARM variants with SF. So far it's not been a problem. Then again I've not been able to test this a lot as getting decent games these days during the week is all but impossible.

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

Well it's mostly the breakthrough values coupled with the terrain bonuses that are the problem. You have to also remember that any country going for HARM can get 1943 HARM by 1940-41. That can make for some very strong divisions that while not counterable, will definitely cause crying amongst most players. After all there's only about 20-30 people that still even semi-actively play this game that really know how to counter templates like that. And by that I don't mean theory-crafting outside the game, but the ability to actually notice what the enemy is doing in-game and adjusting their build accordingly. Not many people do that.



I allow LARM and LARM variants with SF. So far it's not been a problem. Then again I've not been able to test this a lot as getting decent games these days during the week is all but impossible.

How does one counter normal tanks? For all intents and purposes an infantry division is a slower motorized division. They have the same stats. If I do 10 Marines 10 HArm, it's essentially a cheaper, slower 10 Mot 10 HArm division. If only 20 people know how to counter a tank division in the entire hoi community then the average player is a lot worse than I thought. For some reason though, mixing in infantry instead of motorized makes people think everything is OP.

 

[Fulmen]

How does one counter normal tanks? For all intents and purposes an infantry division is a slower motorized division. They have the same stats. If I do 10 Marines 10 HArm, it's essentially a cheaper, slower 10 Mot 10 HArm division.

You can do 10 INF + 10 HARM if you want.

For some reason though, mixing in infantry instead of motorized makes people think everything is OP.

I never said the rule applies to INF on my server.

If only 20 people know how to counter a tank division in the entire hoi community then the average player is a lot worse than I thought.

The average player is indeed very bad, but only 20 people being able to counter a tank division is not what I said. I said around 20-30 people that still play are able to adjust their builds in-game to counter something like that. Divisions like 10 MAR + 10 HARM are not expected, and people tend to have some little idea of their own on Jan 1, 1936 that they tend to follow to their graves so to speak, incapable of adjusting. Then they cry how the game is broken and rage quit, or blame the host for bad rules because he didn't ban SF with HARM, etc. Or blame the mod, if there is a mod in use. I've seen that aplenty.

 

[Secret Master]

If only 20 people know how to counter a tank division in the entire hoi community then the average player is a lot worse than I thought.

Many players have been trained to cheese the AI, so they don't expect certain things.

own on Jan 1, 1936 that they tend to follow to their graves so to speak, incapable of adjusting.

Yep. There's a reason I pay attention to the trade screen in MP games. Certain resources (chromium, I'm looking at you), have a narrow range of things they can used to build. You see the Axis buying up a lot of resource X, you might want to consider what it is being used for and plan accordingly.

Players also ignore the diplomacy screen at their own peril. You can tell almost exactly what Lend-Lease is being sent to other countries via the tooltips. My last game as the US, the Axis knew exactly what I sending to the British via Lend-Lease. That's vital intelligence right there, even before you start seeing the equipment show up in battle reports and the air combat tooltips.

 

[Fulmen]

Certain resources (chromium, I'm looking at you), have a narrow range of things they can used to build. You see the Axis buying up a lot of resource X, you might want to consider what it is being used for and plan accordingly.

Rubber import figures are also of vital intelligence, as is keeping track of each team's plane count. In my experience air superiority decides 9 games out of 10.

And let's not forget checking what countries have researched through the licensing screen. PDX really needs to do something about that. I can understand getting some intel on a foreign country's newest technology even if it's not yet mass-produced, but total omniscience is just silly and unrealistic. It also takes away a level of uncertainty regarding the opponents' builds that was in the game before DoD and existed IRL.

Maybe only allow your allies to see your newest tech or tech from past years in the license screen? Would give some reason for Axis minors tech-rushing to actually do their "Join Axis" focuses instead of joining manually later. Just so they can get access to those sweet Italian FTR 3s and German Panthers... Ping @podcat

EDIT: Though this would mean ROM would have to do the focus that forces GER into a tech group with them. In vanilla MP no-one does that focus specifically because it locks GER out from tech-sharing with the rest of the Axis. There should be a choice to say no for focuses that create tech-sharing groups, and maybe a choice to leave if you're in one. TBH I should probably be posting this stuff in the Suggestions sub-forum.

 

[Aythne]

Germany (build Civs until mid 39 and take everything in Europe)

Could you elaborate on this? Waiting until essentially the war to build military factories seems counterintuitive.

 

[208]

I know this is a necro'd thread, but there's a lot of claims (that were) being thrown about, especially regarding production... I'd like to see a save game or two of what the situation looks like mid-game, if the claimants don't mind

 

[Dalwin]

I know this is a necro'd thread, but there's a lot of claims (that were) being thrown about, especially regarding production... I'd like to see a save game or two of what the situation looks like mid-game, if the claimants don't mind

Technically not a necroed thread since less than a month had elapsed. Time will tell whether the discussion resumes.

 

[Lichus]

What do you production claims?

 

[Black_Shade]

I know this is a necro'd thread, but there's a lot of claims (that were) being thrown about, especially regarding production... I'd like to see a save game or two of what the situation looks like mid-game, if the claimants don't mind

Yeah I'm a bit curious how you can build CiC until 39 and have 10k planes and an army big enough to not lose to France/UK.