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Lichus

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I've seen Germany use them successfully. Not in a 1937 Barbarossa, either.

They are easy to pierce, but you can make a swarm of them. And they can move quickly. Against an opponent who has even temporarily lost control of the air, they can be devastating. It's not always the right answer, but it's a possible right answer for beating the Soviets.

In our MP game, we've started paying more attention to what kinds of tanks we see Germany using in the Battle of France to anticipate what direction Germany is heading.

I would also say that non-German players should not discount the value of L-SPART in MOT divisions. As Britain, I can't really afford real armor divisions in 1939, but I can build a few MOT/L-SPART formations for use in North Africa. They are basically fast INF/ART divisions with some hardness. The Italians can usually pierce them, but that's not their job. Their job is to move fast in the deserts cheaply and carry the same firepower along with them that foot infantry would have.
This is true but as a general rule for newer players it better too stick to mediums. Out of of not knowing mechanics or concepts, micro seems to be the biggest downfall for new players. Also if you do not get air supremacy you feked with light tanks. I've seen plenty of Canadian light tanks or Italian light tanks for instance but germanys advances come in quick planning speed and great bonuses on armour. It is generally excepted that mediums are the best bang for the buck.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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This is garbage advice. Quit telling people "You should not be playing [Nation Here] in a competitive lobby." People can play whatever nation they want, this isn't a job. How are people supposed to improve themselves besides playing in a competitive online setting?

This is a daily reminder that you can play whatever nation you want. The people that choose to obsess over how many hours you have before dictating what nation you are allotted to play are cancerous to the online community.
Have fun in your all welcome no rules game. The rest of us enjoy playing past January of 1936 before the game ends because the host rage quits.
Never build light tanks. 15/5 with 15 mediums and 5 motorised or mechs later is a good template. You can 10k planes as gemany if you know what your doing. As a newer player aim for 5k. Aim for as many tanks as you can and attack provinces with as many of them as you can. Look at air map mode before attacking make sure it is at least yellow, green is better. Attack from multiple angles perfably into plains provinces. Don't attack during winter or across rivers. Once you get better you can change up your build 20 width infantry can hold more ground and reinforce into battle quicker, 40 widths cause more damage and tend to be the meta now a days. Kill Poland and the beleux as quick as possible. Build up planning bonus with your tanks, delete battleplan and attack from multiple provinces add the infantry into the attack but make sure you don't attack with all of them use s to split and attack then select the rest and support attack. You can break any province. Does your server have rules against rushing techs?
I would avoid giving such extreme advice like "never build light tanks" until you actually learn all the facets of the game. In fact, better advice is only build light tanks. Pre 1943 heavy and medium tanks are useless. Spam 1936 lights until you get 1943 tech. Then switch to mediums if youre Germany or heavies if you are Soviets. Template is 4 SPG (5 gun) 2 SPAA (5 gun) 4 Mot 8 Tanks. If you're Soviets it's 10 Mot.
1. Politics: Everyone seems to overlook this when playing Germany. There are two important notes here. World Tension must sit below 25% for as long as possible. At 25%, France/UK can start guaranteeing nations and you can't really begin the war without running into a nation guaranteed by the Allies. If you can't collaborate with Italy and Japan then you're kind of out of luck, unfortunately. A good example: if Japan declares war on Shanxi and China, then World Tension usually starts spiraling out of control very fast.

2. House Rules: It's super upsetting that Paradox still hasn't gotten the jump on this, but if France builds level 10 forts on the Belgian border and has UK helping them defend, you lose. I've been on both sides. This rule is generally present that you can only build up to Level 5, but without it, if France DOES go this right they are damn near impenetrable.
If you can't break level 10 forts reliably in at most a week of fighting then you still have a lot to learn. If you're building strat bombers as Germany it's an instant lose against a good allies, so dont do that. Build those light tanks (see above), build civs until 1939 and you've already won. A good Germany that knows the ins and outs of the game should have a 100% win rate against allies of any skill.

Axis members other than Romania and Hungary are irrelevant so focus your efforts on getting Hungary to rush fighter 3s and Romania to spam synthetic factories and 44 width Marines. Just tell the rest of the axis they can do what they want. Usually I just insist Italy and Japan stay AI as it does a better job than 99% of players.

World tension isn't terribly important, vanilla axis is so strong it doesn't even matter.

The most important (and really the only relevant) nations in the game are Romania and Hungary. If you work well with Romania and Hungary it's GG as soon as you press go in 1936. If you have a terrible Romania and Hungary then it's game over and it's surrender time. Getting good players on those nations is the hallmark of a good Germany.
 

Lichus

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SpeedKat I agree that extreme advice not always best but for newer players it is better to streamline production first. Them factories that are on light tanks can be used on more useful things down the line. I'm not saying light tanks useless far from it light tank 3 are prettty good. But generally they are harder to use on the whole. Now I cannot really speak heavily for vanilla as I personally find it cancerous and annoying to play in cus ppl break rules all the time in some lobbies. My first suggestion for people who want to get better at multiplayer is to find a decent discord or teamspeak server and have a decent player teach you some concepts. People cannot expect to instantly start on Germany but have to progress through the nations.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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SpeedKat I agree that extreme advice not always best but for newer players it is better to streamline production first. Them factories that are on light tanks can be used on more useful things down the line. I'm not saying light tanks useless far from it light tank 3 are prettty good. But generally they are harder to use on the whole. Now I cannot really speak heavily for vanilla as I personally find it cancerous and annoying to play in cus ppl break rules all the time in some lobbies. My first suggestion for people who want to get better at multiplayer is to find a decent discord or teamspeak server and have a decent player teach you some concepts. People cannot expect to instantly start on Germany but have to progress through the nations.
I don't think it's too hard to use light tanks. In fact it's easier to get half a dozen light tank divisions out for France than it is to get half a dozen medium divisions. Don't waste your time building 1941 lights, just build 36. Then research 43 mediums.

I'm not sure in what way it is harder to use light tanks over mediums.
 

Dalwin

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That they there is motorized rocket artillery makes it even stranger that there is no motorized artillery.
I see no reason to have 3 or 4 separate items to fit the same exact role. If having more just for the sake of having more is something that appeals to you, you might like the BICE mod.
 

Dalwin

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Excuse me person who said people who vet people are cancerous it is a matter of 16 people vs 1. If that one person ruins the game cus they not good enough for that nation people could have wasted as long as 6 hours. It's not about being Elitist it is smart practice. I've yet to see a competent germany with less than 900 hours against any of the decent soviets I know. If Germany dies to France wats the point in the game? I have been gracious enough to give advice to a fellow player. Off course people in lower skilled lobbies can play gemany but in most servers your see Soviets and germanys with 2000-3000 hours. The original poster came to my discord and learnt a lot. We teach people with less hours a major and when that elite player who is cooping with him believes he is ready, we will give them a crack. If we let anyone play anything we would end up wasting our lives away with out a good game ever. Just think about other people before you call them cancerous.
No, it is being elitist. Just the fact that you think you are qualified and are entitled to judge someone else is pretty definitive.

Then again that entire quandary is why I don't play in random pickup games. I play over and over with the same group of players and we play at a pace and a set of rules that is less prone to one mistake spelling certain doom. You can believe that this makes us less competitive, but that would just be another elitist attitude.
 

Lichus

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Actually dalwin I would not call you that. I'm sure your group enjoy yourself that's what this game is for. But you have to understand just cus someone says they good enough for Germany does not automatically make them good enough. I also do not play random games. I have a server and there a big group of us who grow everyday. On the light tanks what you gunna do with these divisions after France even if you kill France with them? Disband them? A good Soviet will rape any light tank divisions specially with 36 light tanks in them.
 

Dalwin

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Actually dalwin I would not call you that. I'm sure your group enjoy yourself that's what this game is for. But you have to understand just cus someone says they good enough for Germany does not automatically make them good enough. I also do not play random games. I have a server and there a big group of us who grow everyday. On the light tanks what you gunna do with these divisions after France even if you kill France with them? Disband them? A good Soviet will rape any light tank divisions specially with 36 light tanks in them.
Of course it was not me pushing the 1936 light tanks. Especially since Germany starts the game with the 2nd tier ones. Recommending building the initial ones is, IMO, bad advice.

I have seen many different tank division templates used successfully. There are many factors to take into account and there is no single correct way to do it. That is the beauty of the game. Barbarossa can be very different from game to game simply based on what both sides build.
 

ltccone

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I see no reason to have 3 or 4 separate items to fit the same exact role. If having more just for the sake of having more is something that appeals to you, you might like the BICE mod.
This is 'not having more for the sake of having more.' Motorized artillery was used extensively during the war. Virtually every motorized and armored division had it. SPA was the exception, not the rule. All it is, is hooking an artillery piece to the back of a truck instead of a horse drawn caisson.

As long as you have motorized infantry, you should have motorized artillery.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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This is 'not having more for the sake of having more.' Motorized artillery was used extensively during the war. Virtually every motorized and armored division had it. SPA was the exception, not the rule. All it is, is hooking an artillery piece to the back of a truck instead of a horse drawn caisson.

As long as you have motorized infantry, you should have motorized artillery.
The problem is, i fail to see what role Mot Art would have. Is it just faster regular artillery? I personally havent built artillery at all (other than SPArt) for at least the last couple of months (artillery is bad btw, dont build it). So if artillery itself is useless, how is more expensive artillery any better?
 

ltccone

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The problem is, i fail to see what role Mot Art would have. Is it just faster regular artillery? I personally havent built artillery at all (other than SPArt) for at least the last couple of months (artillery is bad btw, dont build it). So if artillery itself is useless, how is more expensive artillery any better?
Line motorized artillery would be used for motorized, armored, and mechanized division. Why do you think artillery is 'bad;' I certainly don't.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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Line motorized artillery would be used for motorized, armored, and mechanized division. Why do you think artillery is 'bad;' I certainly don't.
Well, SPArt can be upgraded to gun 5, automatically making it a way better choice than any artillery piece could ever match. Dedicated Mot or Mec divisions (with only Mot or Mech in them) are really not worth it. Huge supply cost, and Mot divisions are basically infantry. Strategic redeploy your infantry even halfway decently and theyre faster than any Mot divisions for less supply and far cheaper. Mech divisions are excellent, but need to be paired with heavy tanks. 10 Mech 10 HArm and youre good to go.

Art is good if you want to push with your infantry, the problem is if youre pushing with your infantry youre doing it wrong. Infantry is for holding and delaying tanks and should always be built 22 width all infantry. If you build Art and your opponent builds Armor then youve lost. Art is useless against tank divisions and they will cut through you like butter and snake all over the countryside. If youre playing defense its infantry wall with 30 factories on 1939 infantry equipment and the rest on Fighters/CAS. If youre on offense its 1936 lights, enough infantry equipment to cover your front-line, and the rest on Fighters/CAS.

If youre planning DDay and im playing Germany and i see art in your infantry divisions then i know its game over for the Allies. 22 Width infantry is for delaying tanks, 40 Width 10 Mech 10 HArm divisions are for stopping tanks and either 1936 lights or 1943 mediums are for pushing.
 

Dalwin

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This is 'not having more for the sake of having more.' Motorized artillery was used extensively during the war. Virtually every motorized and armored division had it. SPA was the exception, not the rule. All it is, is hooking an artillery piece to the back of a truck instead of a horse drawn caisson.

As long as you have motorized infantry, you should have motorized artillery.
You already have towed artillery as a support unit which works perfectly well in motorized and armored units. You also have the motorized rocket artillery and you have SPA. Adding another motorized artillery unit would absolutely be a case of adding more just to have more. The game purpose it fills is already covered by other units.

Bicycle infantry existed during the war too. There are mods that add it.
 

Lichus

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Dalwin I agree there no set way to play this. That is what makes this game great at moment. I've been playing hoi since the first hearts of iron and this best multiplayer experience for me. I don't suggest one build for Germany there many. But I just feel the first time Germanys should do a more standard build. Otherwise they might lose against France. That's not to say I've never lost to France. I have twice But this in PFU where France is better. If Germany loses against France in a server you think they will be allowed to play again as Germany. I don't have an elitist feeling I have a get better together feeling. People can progress up nations as long as they show they competent as smaller nations.
 

porta80

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1-3 factories from the start on lvl 1 anti air as support company counter your complete light tank build. I always do that just in case someone just thinks about this stupid idea.
And the rubber you waste in building motorised divisions is better spent into a larger airforce.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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1-3 factories from the start on lvl 1 anti air as support company counter your complete light tank build. I always do that just in case someone just thinks about this stupid idea.
And the rubber you waste in building motorised divisions is better spent into a larger airforce.
In what way does AA counter light tanks? Piercing? Piercing is irrelevant in hoi except in a single situation. If you stack armor with an extremely high defense (like you would get from 10 HArm 10Mec) then you can effectively counter a tank offensive. If you just throw some AT or AA in your infantry divisions then you'll accomplish nothing other than making your infantry divisions more expensive and even easier to break.
 

ltccone

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You already have towed artillery as a support unit which works perfectly well in motorized and armored units. You also have the motorized rocket artillery and you have SPA. Adding another motorized artillery unit would absolutely be a case of adding more just to have more. The game purpose it fills is already covered by other units.

Bicycle infantry existed during the war too. There are mods that add it.
I disagree. Most belligerents nations didn't even use rocket artillery at all, much less a motorized version. Nor is it available in 1936. A 1939 panzer division had an artillery regiment of two battalions of motorized artillery, which is not represented by a support unit. SPA was rare, motorized artillery was common. Germany built less than 1,500 Hummels and Wespes combined, and none were fielded until 1943.
 

astec

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If you're building strat bombers as Germany it's an instant lose against a good allies, so dont do that. Build those light tanks (see above), build civs until 1939 and you've already won. Usually I just insist Italy and Japan stay AI as it does a better job than 99% of players.

World tension isn't terribly important, vanilla axis is so strong it doesn't even matter.

The most important (and really the only relevant) nations in the game are Romania and Hungary. If you work well with Romania and Hungary it's GG as soon as you press go in 1936. If you have a terrible Romania and Hungary then it's game over and it's surrender time. Getting good players on those nations is the hallmark of a good Germany.
Lol, you clearly haven't played on Skritshell's server before. Strategic bombers in numbers are so overpowered they had to be banned.
2000 Strategic bombers over an airzone for even an INSTANT = goodbye airfields and have fun countering when the attacker can teleport his planes to any airzone at will. I don't know what kind of games you play, but if you don't need an Italy or Japan to win then your allied players are garbage.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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Lol, you clearly haven't played on Skritshell's server before. Strategic bombers in numbers are so overpowered they had to be banned.
2000 Strategic bombers over an airzone for even an INSTANT = goodbye airfields and have fun countering when the attacker can teleport his planes to any airzone at will. I don't know what kind of games you play, but if you don't need an Italy or Japan to win then your allied players are garbage.
Have you tried leaving 200 fighters in every airzone in europe? If you do that stratregic bombers are useless as they will all get disrupted, even if you send 10,000 of them. Then just have your Hungary move some planes over if they leave them there to long. Bam, Strats countered. Better yet, put 15 factories on heavy fighters with agility 5, you will shoot down their Strats by the hundreds with just 200 of them in your most important airzones and fighters on the rest.

Other than their being easily countered like i pointed out above, if the allies concentrate to any great degree on strats its game over. The allies are required to do a DDay on the day of Barbarossa, the Soviets will die to a snake every time unless the allies do. If you build any strat bombers, you are giving air superiority to Germany and sacrificing significant production that could have gone to mechanized and heavy tanks. Not only that, but the allies basically have no aluminium, making it impossible to win if you waste it all on Strats. You need to put every factory you can on Fighter 2s until their is no aluminium left to buy in the world. Then that wont even be enough, but you have to pray Germany is mediocre and it will be.

If Italy is pro, then i grant you they can help, but mostly its a win harder deal. I dont see it as fair that Italy can get 150 Mils and 100 Civs by mid 1940 and build by itself more planes than the allies can throughout the whole war (especially since they can build fighter 3s and the allies are stuck with 2s). So usually i just invade them and take their factories, as well as the factories from Yugo and Greece. Japan is entirely irrelevant, the only downside is that AI Japan tends to get invaded by the USA which gives them a few more factory slots, but that doesnt really matter as the bottleneck for the allies is Aluminium and not factories.