Germany: More Fighter 1s preferable to researching and producing Fighter 2s (?)

[billcorr]

There are many ways to play HoI4.

For example,

Singleplayer versus Multiplayer

Or, as demonstrated by the developer in today's live stream,

• stay on 100% ramped up lines of Fighter I (1936 version) production as Germany and postpone researching Fighter II's (1940 version) versus
• rush research and production of Fighter IIs as soon as possible

https://clips.twitch.tv/CrunchyEnergeticCheeseLeeroyJenkins

The reason that this is noteworthy is that some HoI4 players state that it is best to rush Fighter II technology and start producing them as soon as possible. The thinking is that FTR IIs are so much stronger than any FTR I variant, players need to dedicate time and effort to get FTR IIs produced.

The game developer playing as Germany suggested otherwise.

The main difference of opinion expressed by the two hosts might reflect differences in single-player versus multi-player modes.

HoI4 is a fun game and it is enjoyable to watch the game developers expertly provide their opinions about in-game choices.

 

[Cavalry]

Newbie mistake is changing production as soon as you research it, and drop output 80%. The HOI games since many years ago was designed for NOT to do that!

There is no conflict, you rush research fighter 2 and start new factory on them but keep fighter 1 production, probably until fighter 3

 

[Supersotamies]

Newbie mistake is changing production as soon as you research it, and drop output 80%. The HOI games since many years ago was designed for NOT to do that!

There is no conflict, you rush research fighter 2 and start new factory on them but keep fighter 1 production, probably until fighter 3

No just do best fighters possible unless you want to lose the air war.

 

[Achab]

I guess when you do a preview of a naval based DLC you kinda avoid going heavy air so you dont accidentaly end ruling the seas by planes only ...

 

[Alex_brunius]

Newbie mistake is changing production as soon as you research it, and drop output 80%. The HOI games since many years ago was designed for NOT to do that!

The newbie mistake is to keep producing fighter 1. Especially if you got dispersed industry, but even with concentrated it makes very little sense since Fighter 2 win about ~2:1 which means as soon as you reach half production efficiency ( which should be a few weeks at most ) you will be better off producing Fighter 2.

 

[Cavalry]

, but even with concentrated it makes very little sense since Fighter 2 win about ~2:1 which means as soon as you reach half production efficiency ( which should be a few weeks at most ) you will be better off producing Fighter 2.

Don't forget win now, kill the enemy now is much more reward than win later, you get the enemy factory!
Too many old fighters is never a bad thing.
Of course the 1940 fighter model has the benefit of Xp boost too, but change line in the middle of a hard war is questionable.
You can change the old production after you drive the British out of Europe. There are a lot new conquerred factories for the new fighters.

 

[Alex_brunius]

but change line in the middle of a hard war is questionable.

Not with the values Paradox gave it. It's always better to swap right away since 1940 fighters are many times better than 1936. The difference is even larger for Germany since they can't get a designer for 1936 fighters.

 

[Secret Master]

Every time I've tested it, the next tier fighter (whether going from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3) is so much better than the previous tier that holding back is a waste.

Part of the issue here is how certain stats behave with doctrines. The agility stat is important for fighters. There are doctrines that boost agility, but they do so by a percentage. So, that means the same doctrine boosts the next tier fighter more in absolute terms than the previous tier. Even worse, agility acts a percentage boost to stats like air attack if your agility is higher than the other plane. Stack higher agility with higher base air attack, and then you end up in situations where the higher tier fighter is double-dipping. Higher agility leads to a further boost to the already higher air attack of the better plane.

It's also worth mentioning that no one with any experience in the game will research a higher tier fighter and then not apply any XP. Instead, players will often have 400+ air XP banked. So, if you look at the base stats on a higher tier plane and compare then to a pimped out lower tier plane, you might think the differences are marginal. But in reality, the higher tier plane will be pimped out as well for its initial production run. So, 475 XP applied to a 1940 fighter means less than the 475 XP I applied to my 1944 fighter.

Then there's the range issue. Higher tier planes start out with better default ranges. You might not think this is a big deal, but mission efficiency is really important. Even in Europe, you want and need decent range.

Now, I can't speak to research in MtG, since I don't own it. Maybe in MtG, research speed is so different that getting 1944 fighters researched in 1939 is impossible or too expensive. I don't know. But with what we have in the current version of the game, higher tier fighters are just too good not to build especially when I can start building 1944 fighters in 1940, giving me plenty of time to build production efficiency.

 

[billcorr]

Every time I've tested it, the next tier fighter (whether going from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3) is so much better than the previous tier that holding back is a waste.

The significance of Paradox's 30 Jan 2019 livestream is that the QA representative, Ceebie, was of the opinion that the next tier fighter was not so much better than the previous tier.


Niall Bird (QA tester) aka CeeBie

One could infer from his statements is that in Man The Guns, "Quantity is better than quality".
If so, it would add a new dimension to the game and allow for more complex decision making.

Now, I can't speak to research in MtG, since I don't own it. Maybe in MtG, research speed is so different that getting 1944 fighters researched in 1939 is impossible or too expensive.

Very good point.

Man the Guns might be different. In some cases (?), lower tier fighters could be superior than higher tier fighters (variants, efficiency of manufacturing lines, etc).

We will see.

 

[Supersotamies]

well when MtG comes out it will be even more needed to make better fighters because you Still cant use all of your planes because of the fuel issues.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Depends on whether advanced fighters consume more fuel or not.

Hell, with variants dedicated to interception and air superiority, the approach of keeping going with older designs might be the right decision under the right circumstances.

 

[Hjalfnar]

The significance of Paradox's 30 Jan 2019 livestream is that the QA representative, Ceebie, was of the opinion that the next tier fighter was not so much better than the previous tier.

View attachment 446605
Niall Bird (QA tester) aka CeeBie

One could infer from his statements is that in Man The Guns, "Quantity is better than quality".
If so, it would add a new dimension to the game and allow for more complex decision making.



Very good point.

Man the Guns might be different. In some cases (?), lower tier fighters could be superior than higher tier fighters (variants, efficiency of manufacturing lines, etc).

We will see.

LOL, that's new for you? You can easily win the European part of the war with Germany, including Sealion and Barbarossa, until 1941 on highest AI settings without researching a single tech besides producion and doctrines. The enormous amount of planes, ships and divisions you are able to pump out this way drowns everything. You will actually suffer less losses on top of that because you simply overrun any opposition with massed Panzer I divisions (or Panzer IIs, if you want to). As soon as you got the Soviet Union conquered, you don't even need to tech up in 1941, as you have now the manpower to field such a massive amount of low-tech troops, you will be able to mass-invade the US and finish them off completely. Production and tech is massively broken at the moment, that the AI is not able to keep her units supplied with any equipment as the production AI is completely fucked up is just the tip of the iceberg...

 

[Petite]

Only T2 Marbo has an need to research, because T1 cant sink transport-ships

 

[Marcus]

And this is why I absolutely love the production system.

Real choices that need to be made.

Based on what is mentioned here, I think I will switch most of my aircraft factories to Fighter 2 while keeping 4 or 5 or so on the 'update Me 109' program with the Air XP they are generating.

 

[Hjalfnar]

And this is why I absolutely love the production system.

Real choices that need to be made.

Based on what is mentioned here, I think I will switch most of my aircraft factories to Fighter 2 while keeping 4 or 5 or so on the 'update Me 109' program with the Air XP they are generating.

And that's why I hate it...because honestly even in MP teching up is in most cases not really a good idea. At least not in the first years, at 1941 you should do it because you don't have anything else to research anyway. The problem is not the system itself, but the massive drop of production efficiency if you change production from tank 2 to tank 3. In reality the drop was not nearly as significant, as while producing the first generation of real tanks for example in the US, the companies learnt a lot about tank mass production. Ok, the Sherman was basically a massively reworked M3 which was a massively reworked M2. So the differences weren't as big. But the same is true, though to a lesser extent, for Germany and also the Soviet Union. For example the Soviet Union developed a completely new, far less manpower intensive welding technique for tank armour plates. And while this meant their T-34 production numbers went even further up, their next tanks (T-44 and T-54) were ALSO much quicker to be produced as they of course used the same welding methods. In HoI3 this was represented by the "practical". In HoI4 it's represented by the factory efficiency...though actually it is not. So if they would just allowed you to keep a part of the efficiency if you just changed from tank 2 to tank 3, this would make teching up early a viable choice. Right now, it really isn't.

 

[Secret Master]

And that's why I hate it...because honestly even in MP teching up is in most cases not really a good idea.

I'm not sure I agree.

We've reached a point in our MP group where we restrict research because it's too powerful. We got tired of seeing Spitefuls escort bombers over Berlin in 1940, Panthers in Kiev in 1941, and Midway class carriers completed and in action years before the battle of Midway. And in these three areas, having a 2 step advantage in tech is absoluting dominating, even if you have lower production.

But even then, there are ways to mitigate the lower production. While most players prefer concentrated industry, nothing stops someone from spam-researching 1944 fighters in 1939 as Britain, but using dispersed industry to get those factories up to speed faster.

On top of all that, nothing stops a player from spam-researching something like, say, the Panther in 1940 while producing just Panzer IIIs until the Panther is finished. Then you only swap production lines one time, skipping the intermediate step of Panzer IV.

Then there's the other option: progressive swapping of production lines. Nothing stops a player (other than poor planning) from swapping 15 of 60 MIC on tanks to the new model, waiting a month, then swapping another 15. This can ameliorate the production gap a bit, if you think it's going to be too harsh.

 

[OllyOllyOxenFree]

As far as my experience goes quantity > quality

After I researched the first fighter jet as Germany and built about 2k of them, sending them to the UK to protect bombers, only to notice that 10k level 2/3 fighters were not only dominating the sky, but were also killing more of my jets than I was of their fighters.

The air war is broken quite frankly and that was after researching all air warfare doctrines. It's a massive joke if you ask me...

 

[Secret Master]

After I researched the first fighter jet as Germany and built about 2k of them, sending them to the UK to protect bombers, only to notice that 10k level 2/3 fighters were not only dominating the sky, but were also killing more of my jets than I was of their fighters.

That doesn't mean quantity over comes quality.

It means Jet I isn't higher quality. That's a different problem.

Consider this rather expansive test displaying the combat effects of Jet I versus rocket interceptor II, light fighter III and heavy fighter III.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...how-does-it-work.1113042/page-2#post-24541644

And the fun continues in the following post:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...how-does-it-work.1113042/page-2#post-24541702

The short version: Jet I is simply worse on a plane per plane basis than light fighter three in all ways that matter.

 

[OllyOllyOxenFree]

That doesn't mean quantity over comes quality.

It means Jet I isn't higher quality. That's a different problem.

Consider this rather expansive test displaying the combat effects of Jet I versus rocket interceptor II, light fighter III and heavy fighter III.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/anti-air-mechanic-–-how-does-it-work.1113042/page-2#post-24541644

And the fun continues in the following post:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/anti-air-mechanic-–-how-does-it-work.1113042/page-2#post-24541702

The short version: Jet I is simply worse on a plane per plane basis than light fighter three in all ways that matter.

Thank you for veryifying that, though if that is the case, then that is still something that needs to be fixed.

Quite frankly the next thing Paradox should work on next is the air war as it is what will enchance the land war that this game is often raved about...

 

[EntropyAvatar]

Thank you for veryifying that, though if that is the case, then that is still something that needs to be fixed.

Yeah it's strange that the jet fighters are so weak. It's like the devs took agility as the overall air combat ability stat and then when it came time to give the jets stats, they decided that agility is more about turning radius and they should dominate by speed.