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Von Altair

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Since HOI4 is delayed, I get my old hoi3 from dust and tryed to play it(havent played it for a year).
Patched it up (4.02) and all.

Decided to play with a Romania (-36 campaign) and allied myself for Axis as soon as possible. When
it came to -41 I was in good shape and quite strong.

Germany started the war against Soviets. Soon I realized that Germany had quite lot of infantry
divisions and that it was OUT OF MANPOWER at early -42. In that point I paused the game and saved it.
Then I switched to Germany to see what is going on there. German divisions at Russia were lacking
replacements. Manpower was 0 and guess what, there was 8 x n+1 serial infantry divisions (over 40 total)
in product!!!!

How can it be, that such basic AI problem is STILL THERE and not fixed???
 
Last edited:

misterbean

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Did they get stalled in France and Norway? I have seen them lose a ton of MP in that case. How many infantry brigades do they have? I typically have about 125 triangular divisions (so about 375 brigades) by 1941. With the bonus for Barbarossa, they must have really hit a brick wall at some point.
 

GarfunkeL

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The AI builds are mostly fine - it's just that the vanilla AI doesn't switch to MP-light/IC-heavy divisions when running low on MP. As misterbean said, Germany must have bled dry in either Norway or France for that to happen.
 

Kovax

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MOST of my games playing Axis minors go belly up when (not "If") Germany runs out of manpower for stupid reasons. Generally, it stalls out in Norway and 40-60 divisions end up sitting there starving, where 5 would be more than enough to take the country. In older expansions they occasionally sent troops around Africa to attack the UK in India and starve there instead (which was even more ridiculous when there were no significant numbers of Allied troops anywhere in the British Isles to oppose a landing). I've also seen Germany take Leningrad or other major cities by direct assault in several games, then pull the troops back. The Soviets walk in unopposed and then Germany assaults it again, then again withdraws, over and over until there's no more reinforcements available. I counted 6 times that Leningrad was taken and lost by the Germans in one game, AFTER I noticed that Germany hadn't been making a lot of progress in that area for a while.
 

misterbean

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@ OP: what version of the game are you playing? Kovax raises a good point. The AI in earlier versions was even more stupid than in the current one.
 

Less

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From what I know the AI can't cancel divisions in the queue, so if the situation changes quickly it's stuck with stuff like that.

IMO AI shouldn't be building serial divisions for this reason. I'm not sure why they are programmed to do so.
 

Industrious1

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This isnt surprising, this is how the ai is, it constantly attacks and runs out of mp, once it runs out of mp it continues attacking , the divisions get so weak that the russians start counter attacking and the front falls a part and u lose 3 months after running out of mp. This is just AI not much u can do about it
 

Pacius Ferox

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I think there should be some kind of 'AI only Germany'. That would make the game more pleasant to play, especially if you were a minor Axis, or more challenging if you were anyone of the Allies.
 

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Since HOI4 is delayed, I get my old hoi3 from dust and tryed to play it(havent played it for a year).
Patched it up (4.02) and all.

Decided to play with a Romania (-36 campaign) and allied myself for Axis as soon as possible. When
it came to -41 I was in good shape and quite strong.

Germany started the war against Soviets. Soon I realized that Germany had quite lot of infantry
divisions and that it was OUT OF MANPOWER at early -42. In that point I paused the game and saved it.
Then I switched to Germany to see what is going on there. German divisions at Russia were lacking
replacements. Manpower was 0 and guess what, there was 8 x n+1 serial infantry divisions (over 40 total)
in product!!!!

How can it be, that such basic AI problem is STILL THERE and not fixed???

Play with the TRP mod, it is pretty much an expansion for TFH 4.02 (at least that is what most people call it).
 

Kovax

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Play with the TRP mod, it is pretty much an expansion for TFH 4.02 (at least that is what most people call it).
Yes, the German AI does seem to be better in TRP. The problem with TRP is, in my opinion, that the Axis minors are all but helpless compared to "vanilla", so there's not a lot of point in playing them.
 

Lothos

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Yes, the German AI does seem to be better in TRP. The problem with TRP is, in my opinion, that the Axis minors are all but helpless compared to "vanilla", so there's not a lot of point in playing them.

Well it reflects the reality of what those countries truly were (power wise) during that time period.
 

GarfunkeL

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Nonsense. Red Army had 4.8 million men in arms at the beginning of the German invasion. While it grew throughout the war, it also suffered major losses. It's peak strength was 13.3 million in late '45 but that number includes nay and air force as well. Far better "rough number" for Red Army size facing Germany would be 5.5 million from October '43.

W. Victor Madeja in his The Russo-German War. 25 January to 8 May 1945 (1987) on p.73
 

Von Altair

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@ OP: what version of the game are you playing? Kovax raises a good point. The AI in earlier versions was even more stupid than in the current one.

Like I say in my first message. I have 4.02. It is true, that German AI was a bit stuck at France. It didin't declare war to Belgium & Holland and was skirmirshing with Maginot line.
What I saw, there was not much fights at all. Then I helped German AI by declaring war to those 2 countries by myself and added some attack waypoints to help AI.

Still I didin't see any large casualties which could cause this manpower issue. Other than casualties from Russian front, combined with a huge infantry production. German AI
basically chokes itself by producing units it doesn't need. Instead of reinforcing divisions at front. There have been several DLC and patches... still this basic problem
is unfixed. How this can be so?

I mean this is gamebreaking problem. The game is unplayable with anything else than the Germany. If you play any Axis minor, Germany will eventually f**k you up.
If you play with any Allies, you are going to meet too easy Axis. Camoon Paradox! A game with several DLC (a large pile of money) and all you get, is a broken game...
 

Kovax

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In comparison to 20million Russian soldiers, yes it is..
Concentrated into a relatively small portion of the front, 1.4 million men could be a very significant threat as part of an alliance. Spread out, and having to face those 20 million Soviets alone, not so much. The point is that (most of) the minor powers were quite capable of actions against a major country on a limited scale, but that they weren't anywhere near large enough to face the full wrath of a major power alone. The vanilla game tends to overpower them with unrealistic levels of IC, while making them unrealistically technologically backwards (practically no tech difference between Sweden, Hungary, or Czechoslovakia on the one hand, and Tibet, Oman, or Ethiopia on the other), while most of the mods tend to even further cut their already low Leadership and ability to make full use of what limited resources they do have.

Vanilla: most minors able to field unrealistically large armies, with almost no technological distinction between "industrialized" and "undeveloped" minors, all depicted at some intermediate level of mediocrity.
Mods: most minors able to field realistic sized armies often fighting with little more than sticks and stones.

Example: Hungary. Historically, was able to develop a variety of TDs, SPGs, SPAA, and other variants from an initial licensed tank design. Was able to field 100K-120K men with "decent" training and equipment in 1942, who were fairly effective on the Eastern Front. Was then coerced by Germany into sending an additional 250K men in 1943 on short notice, poorly trained, poorly equipped, who where nearly annihilated in a series of engagements near the river Don. The ability to field a SMALL contingent of highly competitive troops was definitely there, but the industrial capacity and economy required to train and build/equip the sheer numbers of men and machinery needed to face a major power head-on just wasn't there.

Vanilla, I can field that full 1943 infantry army in 1940, along with "licensed" German or Italian tanks, aircraft, and other heavy equipment, which they were only able to provide in limited amounts historically, but I can barely research and develop the 1934 vintage radios for the tanks by 1939 without ignoring nearly everything else, much less create the historical range of domestically designed and produced tank variants, TDs, SPGs, ACs, etc. I also can't develop doctrines for the "toys" that I can license-build without completely abandoning details like "officer ratio". IC is absurdly high, Leadership is definitely low.

Mods, I have trouble enough just maintaining respectable infantry techs and doctrines, and a few minimal industrial techs, with virtually nothing left over. The ahistorically high IC is limited to historical levels of output by the lack of industrial techs and other "leverage" that the major countries get in absurd amounts. In essence, there's not much point in playing, because you really can't DO anything but provide a slight speed-bump when it's time for the major countries to overrun you according to schedule.

In the vanilla game, GER gets a lot of "free" manpower by event, and since IC doesn't require manpower to run, you can crank out factories and never have to worry about having enough bodies to run the equipment AND field a huge army. It also has enough Leadership points to do "everything" simultaneously, and dedicate research slots to "researching ahead", rather than doing the "most critical" techs and then having just enough left to dabble in a couple of different fields.
 

Alioth81

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You can try this (my) mod.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?671755-MOD-Small-Improvements-for-TFH

I specifically made this mod so that Germany under AI control performs better (to make playing as Allied or Axis minor nation more enjoyable).

Germany switches to a less manpower demanding but IC intense build schedule much earlier (more focus on ARM and MECH and less on INF).
It contains a lot of other minor tweaks/fixes specifically to the country scripts but is otherwise still vanilla (unit stats/ combat mechanics/ starting OOB/ Manpower etc.)
 

magitsu

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Are you sure it didn't waste its MP on the usual AI pitfalls like attacking over (Danish) straits for months on end?

Yes... it's frustrating to see your main player fail so everything you've prepared is for naught.
 

Secret Master

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I mean this is gamebreaking problem. The game is unplayable with anything else than the Germany. If you play any Axis minor, Germany will eventually f**k you up.
If you play with any Allies, you are going to meet too easy Axis. Camoon Paradox! A game with several DLC (a large pile of money) and all you get, is a broken game...

And yet, when I play someone other than Germany, I don't have these problems all the time. The game is not unplayable.

I sometimes see Germany get stuck in Norway. It is rare that I see Germany get stuck in France. I haven't seen Germany "forget" to DOW Belgium and the Netherlands in a very long time unless the player has done something really weird.

There are a ton of factors that affects Germany's gameplay. When you said that you had to DOW Belgium and the Netherlands for her, that tells me something else went awry in your game. Either you lacked the patience to let Germany fight the Phoney War (which she tries to do) or there was something else wrong. I especially find it odd that the German AI was spamming infantry divisions; that is not typical behavior for Germany in any of my games (and I'm running just plain TFH).
 

21oliver

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The vanilla game tends to overpower them with unrealistic levels of IC, while making them unrealistically technologically backwards (practically no tech difference between Sweden, Hungary, or Czechoslovakia on the one hand, and Tibet, Oman, or Ethiopia on the other), while most of the mods tend to even further cut their already low Leadership and ability to make full use of what limited resources they do have.

Hardly any of the games initial setup is based on historical accuracy, rather it is all part of what i call a bandaid play balance situation. Instead of designing a game by accurately detailing the units, resources, industry, manpower etc... THEN designing a game, HOI3 appears to be reverse designed. The want to make sure that the USA defeats the Japanese, and the Soviets defeat the Germans AFTER the Germans make a push THEN the design the games data to meet those needs. A good reference is comparing the 1936 Techs and Doctrines for Infantry units between Germany & Turkey, they are almost identical. Does anyone believe that in Jan 1936 that was truly the case?

The game suffers from the "We only have so much resources to use in developing the game" syndrome so unfortunately things like minors will always take a back seat in terms of priorities. Lets see what happens in HOI4.