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seattle said:
That's exactly what I think.
I always asked myself this very question. I came to the same conclusion as you did.
Maybe except for the latter part. You cannot suppose that Germany realizes the importance of tanks deus ex macchina.
On the eastern front they wouldn't have gotten the idea of using tanks.
I think, after the most probably successful "Barbarossa" in 1915 including a sort of "Brest Lietovsk", Germany and France would have negotiated a white peace.
Germany would have been satisfied with her territorial gains and France would have recognized their hopeless strategical situation.

Glad to know someone agrees with with me :) . Though the use of tanks is based on hindsight, the westfront would have taught them the use of tanks. I am assuming that the Germans would constructed a maginot line in Alsace Lorraine and holding off pointless French assaults should have taught them that massed infantry attacks on fortified positions is pointless.

RCBricker said:
I am not going to throw my hat into this ring. Just wanted to state a couple things then leave this interesting conversation to you all.

UK didn't join WWI for Belgium sake alone (it was simply the straw that broke the camels back). If no Belgium, there would have been something else that would have gotten them involved. Britian was very concious of a strong Germany and what that might mean.

Tanks were first used by the allies in WWI not the Germans. SO the though that the Germans might have learned the importance of a non existant weapon (other than design and theory) is comical.

Germany was in fantastic economic position going into WW2.

The UK may have entered the war later on, but their army wasn't ready for the task, it was mainly trained and equipped for fighting colonial wars and keeping the Empire together and I wonder what the public opionion would have been if they launched fruitless assaults with no prospects especially if the Russians are knocked out early.
 

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after 1900 the US was in the ultimate position: large and growing population, huge industrial output, limitless resources, isolated position, and strong navy.

no country could attack the US and win, no country could survive a total war against the US. not trying to be patriotic or anything, but it just seems pretty obvious. give america enough time to build up forces, it WILL steamroll an opponent. WW1 germany, WW2 japan/germany.

even without directly contributing men and arms U.S. economic aid to it's allied can mean the difference between victory and defeat. imagine how long britain and the SU would have lasted without lend-lease.

just my opinion!
 
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Alkar said:
Glad to know someone agrees with with me :) . Though the use of tanks is based on hindsight, the westfront would have taught them the use of tanks. I am assuming that the Germans would constructed a maginot line in Alsace Lorraine and holding off pointless French assaults should have taught them that massed infantry attacks on fortified positions is pointless.

I don't agree with this tank hypothesis: if the Germans are defending, why bother developing them? After all, in reality, they defended against Allied assaults that were costly in terms of losses and never bothered with tanks, even when they had encountered them. So why, in an alternative WW1 in which they are similarly defending, would they develop them, given that the Allies developed them to specifically break the trench deadlock?

Edit: the Germans did, of course, develop some tanks, but built them in very small numbers, and they didn't seem to relaise its significance in WW1.
 

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KofK said:
I don't agree with this tank hypothesis: if the Germans are defending, why bother developing them? After all, in reality, they defended against Allied assaults that were costly in terms of losses and never bothered with tanks, even when they had encountered them. So why, in an alternative WW1 in which they are similarly defending, would they develop them, given that the Allies developed them to specifically break the trench deadlock?

Edit: the Germans did, of course, develop some tanks, but built them in very small numbers, and they didn't seem to relaise its significance in WW1.

The idea behind this is after that defeating Russia, the Germans would have needed to take on the western front, therefore launching offensive operations of their own if the French refused to give up. Though you are right that the Germans did not build many tanks and rather poor designs at that, which ironic seeing what happened in WWII.
 

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Their Eyes were Bigger Than Their Mouths

I have to agree with most of the posters. Germany just set her goals to large.

One of the biggest mistakes that were made was the invasion of Russia. Yes it could be argued that if Hitler didn't strike first that Stalin would have. Let's face it. Stalin (as we've learned through the 20/20 lenses of hindsight) was a dictator and could have easily been swayed to either go along with Hittler's plans or to sit quietly back and take some additional gains as well.

I agree that the world can not be conquered by a single country, but imagine a world where the Axis powers (with or without Russia) ruled. How many South American countries would have risen up had Germany been better able to support their own dictatorships and socialist designs?


One final comment, Germany also was eaten from within as well as from without. There were several factions in German politics all scheming and working the angles to undermine the authority and control of others. This made Germany ripe for the picking.
 

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There is not chance that Germany could win WWII. First they had no desire to fight the western allies (France Britian). In fact Hitlers goal was to get a common front with the USSR and then fight for living space. He had no desire to strike to the West and was quite impressed with Great Britian as an Empire. But due to Nazi ideology there was no way the Great Britian would have quite, Churchill was not one to believe that Hitler and the Nazis had any right to rule anything. Given the problem of having the English Channel to cross and no plans made to do it, England was quite safe. With the Navy there to defend them it would then simply be a test of time, which Germans new was against them. There is no condition on which I believe Great Britian would have accepted peace that did not involve the removal of Nazis Germany, although this was not made official until the entry of the US into the war. I also believe that Germany would not be able to defeat the USSR. Guderian quotes Hitler as saying that if he knew that the USSR could produce 10000 tanks a year he would not have attacked, the fact was, that is what Guderain had told him before the invasion. So given the production and manpower abilities of the USSR, even with no west front I do not believe Germany would have won.

World War 1 is another story. With a little more aggressive moves and proper distribution of forces then Germany would have won in the first months of the war. Material salvation for the allies came in the form of US production not man power. Economically Germany was better off than Britian and France combined. Had it not been for US production it could well have turned against the allies. Given the circumstances I think changes could have let to victory, the results of that is any body's guess but I would expect small territorial changes in Europe and colonial changes else where.

Well that is my 2 cents.
 

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IchBinDerBatman said:
They had an Schlieffen Plan, this plan was build with the focus to have 80% of all troops on the northern flank of Europe (Belgium Netherlands) and to break through. However, the Generals decided to change it and make it a little "safer" and to strenghten the middle front. Schlieffen said about an possible War "macht mir die rechte Flanke stark" strenghten the right flank.

Martin van Creveld´s "Supplying War - logistics from wallenstein to Patton" (Cambridge University Press 1977) has a major casestudy of the Schlieffen Plan...and according to him the whole plan was unfeasable from a logistical point of view...the alteration made to the plan actually helped this by reducing the amount of troops which were scheduled to use the same few limite roads...and even if the Germans had won at the Marne according to Creveld...they would probably have had to retreat anyway due to lack of supplies...and certainly would have been in no position to continue the attack towards Paris. Also on a sidenote there was NO reason to believe the french would have caved in merely because Paris had fallen...the situation in ww1 and ww2 just cannot be compared in ww2 the french army had practically ceaced to exist/function...by the time Paris fell...had the Germans captured Paris in ww1 the french were absolutely ready to fight on!
 

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cmstea0 said:
after 1900 the US was in the ultimate position: large and growing population, huge industrial output, limitless resources, isolated position, and strong navy.

no country could attack the US and win, no country could survive a total war against the US. not trying to be patriotic or anything, but it just seems pretty obvious. give america enough time to build up forces, it WILL steamroll an opponent. WW1 germany, WW2 japan/germany.

even without directly contributing men and arms U.S. economic aid to it's allied can mean the difference between victory and defeat. imagine how long britain and the SU would have lasted without lend-lease.

just my opinion!

Actually one combination (unlikely as it might seem) that gave the US planners nightmares would be a british/Japanese alliance against the US.
 

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Arilou said:
Actually one combination (unlikely as it might seem) that gave the US planners nightmares would be a british/Japanese alliance against the US.

Speaking of an alliance with Japan, why didn't Germany form an alliance with Japan prior to WWI? Both shared the same rivals, Russia and the British Empire. And both had conflicting interests AFAIK, so there would be a great deal of potential for coordination.

Which leads me to the question what would have happened if the Axis powers had actually worked together during WWII? Each seemed to be pursuing its own interests, Germany in Russia, Italy in the Mediterranian and Japan in the Asian Pacific. What would would have happened with the Soviet Union if both Germany and Japan had coordinated their attacks? The Soviets would have faced a two front war giving the Germans and Japanese a good chance of defeating them.
 
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boehm said:
Martin van Creveld´s "Supplying War - logistics from wallenstein to Patton" (Cambridge University Press 1977) has a major casestudy of the Schlieffen Plan...and according to him the whole plan was unfeasable from a logistical point of view...the alteration made to the plan actually helped this by reducing the amount of troops which were scheduled to use the same few limite roads...and even if the Germans had won at the Marne according to Creveld...they would probably have had to retreat anyway due to lack of supplies...and certainly would have been in no position to continue the attack towards Paris. Also on a sidenote there was NO reason to believe the french would have caved in merely because Paris had fallen...the situation in ww1 and ww2 just cannot be compared in ww2 the french army had practically ceaced to exist/function...by the time Paris fell...had the Germans captured Paris in ww1 the french were absolutely ready to fight on!

THANK YOU FOR THAT! I read that back in the day and have always felt it was the major overlooked point of the Schlieffen plan. By the time von Kluck's turn entered the general lexicon of history the German army had basically run out of gas (figuratively so)

Logistics are everything in war - and with that in mind the realities of the US and UK advantage over Nazi Germany in terms of their naval strength really precluded the Germans from ever being able to "win" on a grand scale. They did not have the population base to singlehandedly dominate the Eurasian landmass nor the transportation capacity to dominate beyond it. The Germans had neither the economic nor (and this is very important) SHIPBUILDING capacity to ever even remotely be able to catch up with the numbers of ships the Anglo-Saxons could put in the water. It is as elementary as knowing your Mahan.

The German philosophy of inherent Teutonic superiority did not make for a world-spanning philosophy. Unlike Communism you cannot go to, say, New Zealend, and get the Maoris on bord with the concept of Aryan supremacy. This by definition limited the scope of what Germany could conceivably control.

However, a limited victory was still possible assuming everything went right at certain times. Say in 1940 when a Halifax-led government that would have likely made peace was a real possibility in the UK (See "Five Days in London: May 1940" by John Lukacs to see how real a possibility it briefly was.)
A well-executed Barbarossa could have led to the political disintegration of the Stalinist regime, especially provided the Huns refrained from immediately taking on their "conquer, rule, exploit" mentality in the subject nations like Ukraine. But expecting the Nazis to behave other than as Nazis is inherently counterintuitive.
A "Mediterranean strategy" in 40 or 41 focused on reaching the Middle East could have caused us un the UK a lot of trouble (but then you get the issue of logistics and the utter lack of seapower on the part of the Axis.)
And of course if someone had dropped a cosmic F12/alienattack on the Allies at the right place and time things could have been otherwise as well.

Best the Germans could have done is to have achieved some sort of Cold War analog with them predominant in Europe facing off against a US and UK that were immeasurably far ahead in nuclear technology. All the Germans had for themselves there was Werner Heisenberg, who along the way had made a fundamentally mistaken assumption as to the amount of fissile material required for a bomb - this precluded development of anything more than a "dirty" bomb. While the US was cranking out several city-destroyers per month by late '45.

I always thought the main misconception about how close they came in II had a lot to do with all the self-serving memoirs by German Generals in the post-war period. That verdamnt Hitler! Had he not been so stupid at the wrong times our superior genius would have won the day after all!
 
Last edited:

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For those of you who are stating that WWI simply needed a change in concentration of troops or supplies, one must remember that WWI was the test of the ages, nevern before had the world of technology changed so much since the last great contest. Machine guns, autos, & planes. Not to mention doctrines like the use of subs as a major arm of the navy or the use of airplanes or other aircraft to recon or drop bombs from.

I seriously doubt that more troops in WWI would have meant anything more than more graves.
 

Feanaaro

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Never ever Germany coul win WW2... some doubt about WW1

Facts are quite simple:
- a XX century war is a total war
- a total war is won by the richest, more populated, biggest (in thes order of importance) country involved
- Germany didn't meet, by far, any of those requirements

Someone points out that Germany could overcome, at least partially, those unfavorable condition with superior tecnology ad tactics. That's true, and that's why it was able to achieve great results in the first years of war (like conquering France and thousands of miles in the Urss territory)... but in the long run, economy, manpower and size are the key factors, and the historical fact simply demonstrate this thesis.

Someone else point out that Germany could use the resources of conquered territory in a wiser way instead of simply plunder everything in the short run. This opinion is incorrect and has is basis on a misunderstood of the modern war and modern economy. Even if Germany was not ruled by a group of sociopaths more concerned of eliminating racial enemies than manage war economy (one should also raise the questione:"if Germany wasn't ruled by such of a human scum, would it have beginned another world war??"), it is simply impossible to exploit the entire productive potential of an occupied country. Historically, military occupation drain much more resurces than is possible to obtain without massive plundering. This is particulary true if the resource is not something material (i.e. workforce) and if the occupied territory are densly populated by very cohese, nationalist, and quite ostile people (wich was the case of all european occupied territory and especially of the richer one i.e. France). Effective exploitation is possible, maybe, in the long run... but, even this only at certain condition, first of what is some kind of incorporation of the former enemies in the State. And that is not simply to obtain (for example, the entire colonial exploit was economically passive for most countries), completely impossible, i think, for a nation ruled by a mad and very exclusive ideology like Nazism was. It's not a mere case that since Roman empire, any empire in Europe resulted in a very very very bad economic exploit (and someone could raise more than a doubt even about the Roman empire...).

So, never ever could Germany win WW2. Who aim is attention on single tactical or strategical errors, wich could be corrected, is not considering the real point wich lies behind. Obviously the extraordinary successes of the first years of war can justify one, who superficially analizes the facts, to think such things. And the incredible horror of the nazism psicologically tend to embiggens [simpsons docet] the danger it represented for the free world. This could explain why many people actually do think Germany could have win.

I have not a clear opinion on WW1, in that case chances of Germany was stronger i think... maybe they could have win if the war hadn't go Worldwide.

p.s. please don't blame me for my poor english. These are difficult topics to discuss with so limited linguistic knoweledge.
 

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Danielos said:
Well, it wouldn´t really have been fair to their Axis-buddy Japan to not join the war on US.
:rolleyes:


why not? they did it to them against the soviets
 

unmerged(28537)

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I think Germany stood got closer to victory(Ie successfully gainig terroriteries through the war) than most of u seem to think admittadly only because of the fact that they stretched their economy industry and army to their very limits. I think that If the germans had secessfully carried out sealion(rather than trying top bomb the UK to obliuvion first) then they would have proabably taken the allies out of the war as I doubt the isolationist US would have bothered without european bases or trading partners to help and they would have probably sought peace with Germany the same with the free forces of UK and the other allies without homelands they would have very little industry to supply their forces (remember the UK's grip on india was becomning very tenous at the time if it had happoned in the 1st world war then maybe but not by this stage) as for barborossa anyone who knows anything about ww2 knows that the war was decided on the eastern not western front. If germany had held stalingrad and taken moscow(quite a big if but they were close) then stalins main powerbase and man power pools would have been lost(athough their was a lot of industry to the east their population was mostly in the big cities in the west) and the oil supply in the caucuases would have been cut off leaving the massive areas of the soviet union left with less resources and manpower porbably turning it to about 60 - 40 in Germanies favour of course acheing both of these things would have been very difficult for the thrid reich but not impossible and they would probably have won the world war with the whole of europe in their control. As for world war 1 nonone is gunna win that war as with machine guns but virtually no moterised vehicles stalemate is allmost complelty certain no matter how big your army is. oh and Jutland made virtually no diffrence to the war at all as blockading germany would have been esay anyway due to the fact that germany had few oversies colonies to get resources from.(athough it is probably the most classic naval battle ever)
 

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Feanaaro said:
Facts are quite simple:
- a XX century war is a total war
- a total war is won by the richest, more populated, biggest (in thes order of importance) country involved
- Germany didn't meet, by far, any of those requirements

Someone points out that Germany could overcome, at least partially, those unfavorable condition with superior tecnology ad tactics. That's true, and that's why it was able to achieve great results in the first years of war (like conquering France and thousands of miles in the Urss territory)... but in the long run, economy, manpower and size are the key factors, and the historical fact simply demonstrate this thesis.

Someone else point out that Germany could use the resources of conquered territory in a wiser way instead of simply plunder everything in the short run. This opinion is incorrect and has is basis on a misunderstood of the modern war and modern economy. Even if Germany was not ruled by a group of sociopaths more concerned of eliminating racial enemies than manage war economy (one should also raise the questione:"if Germany wasn't ruled by such of a human scum, would it have beginned another world war??"), it is simply impossible to exploit the entire productive potential of an occupied country. Historically, military occupation drain much more resurces than is possible to obtain without massive plundering. This is particulary true if the resource is not something material (i.e. workforce) and if the occupied territory are densly populated by very cohese, nationalist, and quite ostile people (wich was the case of all european occupied territory and especially of the richer one i.e. France). Effective exploitation is possible, maybe, in the long run... but, even this only at certain condition, first of what is some kind of incorporation of the former enemies in the State. And that is not simply to obtain (for example, the entire colonial exploit was economically passive for most countries), completely impossible, i think, for a nation ruled by a mad and very exclusive ideology like Nazism was. It's not a mere case that since Roman empire, any empire in Europe resulted in a very very very bad economic exploit (and someone could raise more than a doubt even about the Roman empire...).

So, never ever could Germany win WW2. Who aim is attention on single tactical or strategical errors, wich could be corrected, is not considering the real point wich lies behind. Obviously the extraordinary successes of the first years of war can justify one, who superficially analizes the facts, to think such things. And the incredible horror of the nazism psicologically tend to embiggens [simpsons docet] the danger it represented for the free world. This could explain why many people actually do think Germany could have win.

I have not a clear opinion on WW1, in that case chances of Germany was stronger i think... maybe they could have win if the war hadn't go Worldwide.

p.s. please don't blame me for my poor english. These are difficult topics to discuss with so limited linguistic knoweledge.


a nice conclusion. Both wars have shown that germany can only wage war for a limited time until it is completly exausted. So, after the Blitzkrieg failed in russia, they should have made peace with the sovjets while they still could from a position of stregth. And the idea that one could win an all-out war against the US, without being able to hit them on their home turf is idiotic. The germans could have made peace along the lines of former poland plus the baltic and parts of the ukraine, but nooooo...
 

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German decisions in WWII

Could Germany have won WWII? That depends on how you view the issue. Of course there where some fatal mistakes that could have changed history, but those were made by the Allies as well. I'm a believe that chance has a major part in history, but unfortunately it's very difficult to come to an agreement on that as it in the end comes down to single soldiers and their actions.

If you take Germany in WWII and use facts and statistics I don't think there can be much doubt about if they could have won or not. Overall they were in a very good position to win the war. There are thousands of examples, but I'll settle with the quality of their army. These numbers are taken from a book by Michael Tamelander & Niklas Zetterling Avgörandets ögonblick, I don't know if it's available in English. Anyway, during the campaign in Normandy more than half of the German strength in numbers was made up by third class troops. Despite that the Allies combat losses (dead, wounded) where three times higher than those of the Germans. The Western Allied armies can by no means be described as bad, they where among the best at the time, but the German was even better. Well I could sit here all night and describe why Germany could have won, but I trust those who read this know their homework.

In reality there were however a very big BUT. Even though there were a lot of decisions the German leaders could have taken, would they have done it? I believe that Germany had the wrong people at the wrong places when WWII begun, and they could not have done much better. To make a long story short I think that many of the traits that took Hitler and his followers to power also made them less suitable to lead the war. Especially that's true with Hitler. Without his fanatical mind and uncompromising ways he would not have made many the mistakes he commited during the war, but on the other hand he wouldn't be the German Führer.
 

Feanaaro

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Belegrimbor said:
These numbers are taken from a book by Michael Tamelander & Niklas Zetterling Avgörandets ögonblick, I don't know if it's available in English. Anyway, during the campaign in Normandy more than half of the German strength in numbers was made up by third class troops. Despite that the Allies combat losses (dead, wounded) where three times higher than those of the Germans.

I'm not sure... are you jocking???
Allies took three times the casualties of the German in normandy... yes, and this demonstrate the incredible superiority of German army... or, maybe, it could demonstrate the mere fact that is more difficult and dangerous to attack a shore without a beachead than defending it by a very strong fortified position!
:rofl:
 

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Will the real Germany please stand?

An unsurprising yet always contentious and interesting topic for discussion. I don't know enough of the events surrounding the Great War to provide any sort of fresh insights, therefore I'll stick with the Second World War. And despite being a World War II buff (heck, aren't we all?), I'm not certain how fresh my insights might be in light of some of the quality posts so far. So here goes, nuthin'...

First and foremost, let us clarify what it means to "win the war". In the context of this discussion, it seems reasonable to propose this term means Germany has succeded in forcing either the conditional or unconditional surrender of Britian or the USSR or both; or some sort of geo-political/economic settlement favourable to Germany. If such terms are met then we may state Germany had won or could win the war.

Now, could Germany have won the war? There were certainly a number of factors in their favour: 1. Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Low Countries and France had fallen; thus, removing British allies from the continent. 2. The BEF was nearly destroyed in France and never truly recovered. 3. Britian did not have the manpower to sustain a protracted war (this became abundantly clear in the last stages of the war). 4. The Wermacht was the best trained, best led, and often though not always, the best equipped army in Europe, if not the entire world. The last of the great professional armies. 5. The Wermacht was supported by a highly skilled air force, namely the Luftwaffe. 6. The US, at least initially, was doing its best to remain out a lengthy European war. 7. Germany managed a political coup d' grace with the Molitov-Ribbentrop Pact. Not only did this agreement secure the destruction of an old German (and Russian) enemy, Poland, but it seemed to have lulled Stalin into a false sense of security in the East.

In the West, I think Germany had the potential to wear out the British, as long as the US or Soviet Union did not intervene (more about this later). Granted the Britsh Navy was formidable and would have done their best to prevent an amphibious invasion of the 'Home Islands'. Nonetheless, the British Army, for the most part, was poorly led and poorly trained in comparison to the Wermacht. Any time the two armies were on equal footing, the British were defeated. And whether or not the British public would have supported Churchill's admirable defiance in a protracted war without any other nation to share the casualties is debatable. Subsequently, Britian eventually suing for peace with Germany seems plausible.

In the East, I do believe Germany had the manpower and tactical ability to overrun European Russia and nearly did so twice. Barbarossa caught the Soviets on their heels and the Red Army was devastated by the initial thrust. Moscow was certainly within Germany's reach. Nonetheless, it is unclear whether the fall of Moscow would have led to the capitulation of the USSR. Incidentally, Stalin with his penchant for brutality and paranoia was not exactly the beloved leader of Mother Russia. If his government had collapsed, perhaps more Russians, especially ethnic Russians, would have fought alongside the Germans.

However, German failure, in my opinion, was not the result of economy, logistics, or manpower (though these are certainly significant factors) but largely the result of ideology. Germany's embrace of Nazi ideology doomed its people to inevitable defeat and doomed the people of Europe to a horrible fate. Nazism was a myopic, authoritarian, unimaginative, ethnocentric ideology that regarded war as the ultimate political tool. That is to say, amongst Nazis, war was not seen as sometimes necessary but unfortunate political outcome. Nazis desired war, they longed for it. Thus, Germany's military choices were always inextricably intertwinned with Nazi ideology.

It is true that if Germany had simply let the USSR alone until it had exhausted Britian, it could have concentrated its full military might on Russia. Yet this is an impossibility since Nazi ideology always viewed the conquest of Russia, along with the destruction of European Jews, as its primary goals.

Consequently, and thankfully, Nazi ideology inspired irrational decisions for Germany despite ample opportunity to chose rational, effective choices, e.g. murdering large pools of potential labour in conquered territories; starving inmates in labour camps while they perform useless tasks that only lead to death; military plans, such as the conquest of Stalingrad, based upon ideological rather than strategic goals; and so forth (I say "thankfully" not because I condone Germany's murderous rampage through Europe but "thankfully" because their ideology became their own undoing - at a horrible price, of course).

Therefore, I'd say Germany could not have won the war, at least in the sense described above, since Nazi ideology would never accept the most favourable circumstances to end the war, i.e. the partial conquest of the USSR was unacceptable.

Incidentally, the argument suggesting the Allies and the Soviet Union would have lost without US military and economic intervention is a 'Catch 22'. No one would argue the importance of American contributions on the battlefield and in the factories. Yet, neither the US or Britian had the stomach, if you will, to truly slug it out with Germany. The Germans approached the art of war with ruthless effeciency and outclassed the Allies on equal footing and often inflicted terrible casualties when outnumbered. The US and Britian were hestitant to commit their civilian armies to bloody campaigns. This, in part, explains the lacklustre and unimaginative leadership that often plagued Allied armies. Only Stalin had the cold-hearted determination and ruthlessness to make the "blood sacrifice" to ensure Germany's eventual defeat (and secure Soviet political ambitions). The outcome of the war appears unclear without the horrendous sacrifice of the Red Army.
 
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Spricar said:
a) SU would surrender if Moscow fell and, if they didn't how far more do you think Germans would be able to advance? Enogh for Su to surrender?

Many people don't realize that in 1941 Moscow was THE major rail connection between the north and south in european Russia.

Had it fallen it's very likely that Germany would've prevailed on that simple fact alone. Include the propaganda windfall and the huge morale boost that the fall of Moscow would've given the Germans (most likely it would've had the exact opposite effect on the Soviet's at the same time) and history could quite easily have been much different.

Anyone who's studied the Battle of Stalingrad must see how close the Soviet's came to collapse a full year later.

Had Moscow fallen in 1941 it would've been "game over".
 

ottomaton

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If you want to know everything you ever wanted to know about World War I, read The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman. It was written in the early 60's, won a pulitzer prize and JFK used to give it to friends as his favorite book. It is absolutely readable and details everything that was done wrong, by the Germans and everyone else.

The title of the book comes from a reference the Kaizer made to his troops being home "before the leaves fall from the trees in August" (the war began in September). It starts with the death of the Kaizer's cousin King George, and ends with the battle of the Marne, where Paris was saved when the commander of the city litteraly comindeered all the taxi cabs in Paris to move his troops to the river Marne, where the trench warefare began.

The Germans won the Franco-Prussian war by their genus von Moltke, who came up with a game book for another war with France. It involved a giant end-around through Belgium. The French were depending on the Russians to defend them, since they had extreme numbers and were remembered as the famous Cossacks of the Crimean War, but were in fact poorly trained, had bad officers, and were basically defeated in 1 battle at Tannenberg by Erich Luddendorf working for un-retired general von Hindenberg, who entered the war wearing a Prussian uniform and came to be known as "General Was Sagst Du?", because he asked Luddendorf to make all decisions. Tannenberg essentially resulted in the Russian Revolution.

The end around through Belgium, however, brought England into the war which had treaty obligations to protect Belgium. Unfortunately, the British expeditionary commander didn't like French people and wouldn't coordinate with them.

Finally, the Germans helped rally support against them by mass killings of civilians when Belgians sniped at them, and the burning of the city of Louvain to the ground which housed one of the oldest libraries in Europe helped draw US support against them.

The French refused to change from red to modern camouflage-type uniforms because it would ruin their Élan (morale). They also sniped among each other and were generally disorganized.

In short, both side made horrific blunders and miscalculations. The Germans were a bunch of Taxi cabs away from taking Paris, which was what ended the Franco Prussian war. It easily could have been a German victory in under a year.

Victory conditions qualified as a Russian defeat to stop them from attacking the Austrians, which occurred at Tannenberg, and a humiliating surrender by the French with great concessions. The first actually occurred, and the second had occurred during the Franco-Prussian war.

Finding some way to invade France that didn't involve Belgium would probably have done it. Keep in mind, the cause of the war was Russia's defense of Austro-Hungary's Slavic peoples.

Anyway, there's a whole lot more to the book. I highly recomend you read it if you really want to understand the background and strategic aims of WWI, not just the images of gas attacks and trench warefare that characterize the stalemate period after the first few months.