Germany in CK ( was: Why on Earth is Germany not playable?)

[Calgacus]

Why on Earth is Germany not playable?

When I asked this on another thread, I got this response:

What is this "Germany" you are talking about? You mean the one that formed a part of the Empire of which the Salians titulated themself Roman Emperors? The one where it's elected king was titulated King of the Romans?

My response: actually, the kings of Germany only took the title "King of the Romans" after they had been crowned by the Pope. (I mean, after it first happened). Of course they'll use the grandest title available to them, but doesn't mean that the actual German kingdom disappeared! They were elected first by the highest German nobles as King of the East Franks then King of the Germans..."Rex Theotonicorum"

And BTW, Germany is not really the same as the Holy Roman Empire. By the time of Barbarossa, the German kings were also kings of Italy (Pavia) and Burgundy (Arles), later to become kings of Sicily and Jerusalem.

The fact that the developers think what they seem to, is enough to convince be they'd better be sticking with a later historical epoch.

 

[unmerged(16099)]

Dude, you are stressing about about an unoffical list that was created months ago by members of this board. It is NOT an offical listing from the developer.

None of the guys who responded to your post were developers either so I think you have mis-directed your argument.



--
EnPeaSea

 

[Calgacus]

Dude, you are stressing about about an unoffical list that was created months ago by members of this board. It is NOT an offical listing from the developer.

None of the guys who responded to your post were developers either so I think you have mis-directed your argument.

--
EnPeaSea

Well, that's OK then. But, you know, I bet it happens to be the case that the developers have an identical or near-identical list

 

[Havard]

My response: actually, the kings of Germany only took the title "King of the Romans" after they had been crowned by the Pope. (I mean, after it first happened). Of course they'll use the grandest title available to them, but doesn't mean that the actual German kingdom disappeared! They were elected first by the highest German nobles as King of the East Franks then King of the Germans..."Rex Theotonicorum"

When a new king of the Germans etc. was elected he was titulated King of the Romans before his coronation. Apart from that I think we agree.

And BTW, Germany is not really the same as the Holy Roman Empire. By the time of Barbarossa, the German kings were also kings of Italy (Pavia) and Burgundy (Arles), later to become kings of Sicily and Jerusalem.

Noone have ever disputed this.

The fact that the developers think what they seem to, is enough to convince be they'd better be sticking with a later historical epoch.

I suggest you read EnPeaSea's reply above and cool down a bit

 

[Calgacus]

When a new king of the Germans etc. was elected he was titulated King of the Romans before his coronation. Apart from that I think we agree.

Indeed, but only after the Imperial title became part of German kingship...which is why I said in brackets "after it first happened"

I suggest you read EnPeaSea's reply above and cool down a bit

You can probably see that I've already read it

 

[Calgacus]

But anyways...will Germany be playable then?

 

[Trax-3]

But anyways...will Germany be playable then?

In CK you don`t play countries, you play dynasties, so probably you can choose to play the dynasty which held the throne of the Emperor in the beginning of one of the campaigns

 

[ErmineClad]

But anyways...will Germany be playable then?

Perhaps the answer to that question depends on what you define as a "playable Germany"?

Dynasties are playable, not nations. If your referring to a MTW version of Germany, with one dynasty always controlling the imperial crown and Germany as a huge homogenous kingdom, I'd say please no.

I would say what would make Germany interesting would be an more clearly and realized version of the abstarted EUII model of elections. Politics of the Empire would be what makes it so interesting for me... and balancing all the factions of an extremely fractured kingdom.

As for whether or not a character you control that is elected emperor can control Germany as a kingdom of sorts, I'd say yea most likely. The extent of this control and how the powers of the Emperor is dealt with, is a different question altogether though.

Remeber also, I'm not an official for the game, and these are just my opinions, not how it will be.

~EC~

 

[Calgacus]

Perhaps the answer to that question depends on what you define as a "playable Germany"?

Dynasties are playable, not nations. If your referring to a MTW version of Germany, with one dynasty always controlling the imperial crown and Germany as a huge homogenous kingdom, I'd say please no.

I would say what would make Germany interesting would be an more clearly and realized version of the abstarted EUII model of elections. Politics of the Empire would be what makes it so interesting for me... and balancing all the factions of an extremely fractured kingdom.

As for whether or not a character you control that is elected emperor can control Germany as a kingdom of sorts, I'd say yea most likely. The extent of this control and how the powers of the Emperor is dealt with, is a different question altogether though.

Remeber also, I'm not an official for the game, and these are just my opinions, not how it will be.

~EC~

OK.

But I think it'd be anachronistic to impose post-1648 Germany onto the High Middle ages. Succession to the German throne was pretty consistant. Elections were usually purely a formality unless a dynasty came to an end. It certainly wasn't a free-for-all, as the EU model has it. Elections happened for much of this period in the same way that the Senators choose the Roman Emperor - purely as a rubber-stamp. Germany was a strong, unified kingdom until the reign and death of Frederick II. Germany was much more centralized than France is in the period, it would just be odd to have France and Kievan Rus, but not Germany.

I love EU II, but the main and (almost) the only spoiling factor is that there is no chance to unify Germany as Germany...and that, of course, means that the 30 Years War is completely meaningless in the game.

But the game's about dynasties, not nations, as you say. Well, how does that Nations list fit into the game?

 

[Demetrios]

Um, wasn't this "problem" solved in another thread?

Well, as long as we keep the discussion to the dynamics of the German Kingdom during the period, I'll keep it open, but please, no further references to that obsolete "playable nations" list...

 

[Demetrios]

And a nice new title to emphasize the change...

 

[ErmineClad]

OK.

But I think it'd be anachronistic to impose post-1648 Germany onto the High Middle ages. Succession to the German throne was pretty consistant. Elections were usually purely a formality unless a dynasty came to an end. It certainly wasn't a free-for-all, as the EU model has it. Elections happened for much of this period in the same way that the Senators choose the Roman Emperor - purely as a rubber-stamp. Germany was a strong, unified kingdom until the reign and death of Frederick II. Germany was much more centralized than France is in the period, it would just be odd to have France and Kievan Rus, but not Germany.

I love EU II, but the main and (almost) the only spoiling factor is that there is no chance to unify Germany as Germany...and that, of course, means that the 30 Years War is completely meaningless in the game.

But the game's about dynasties, not nations, as you say. Well, how does that Nations list fit into the game?

It really doesnt since every christian noble dynasty at game start that owns land is playable. Or so is my understsanding... everyone but muslims and the city states and merchant republics are playable.
So in the case of Germany and France there will be alot of playable dynasties.

~EC~

 

[Havard]

But the game's about dynasties, not nations, as you say. Well, how does that Nations list fit into the game?

One of the reasons I closed that "Nations" thread was that it doesn't fit. It was based on earlier information that only sovereign Christian rulers would be playable. Even then the thread title was misleading, since the first posts asked "What nations are playable?" and the second posts repled "You don't play nations you play dynasties" (And, with regards to the German King/Roman Emperor they should of course have been in that list, but I think we are done with that discussion now...)