Germany HORRIBLY overpowered

[Pioniere]

Soviet Union is already producing units at a very high rate in mid 1941.

I see that the axis has more land units combined like it is now. That is somewhat correct to history in the early stages of Barbarossa in eastern-europe, but the idea was to have few emergency units via an ai-event. That might be good thing for the soviet-ai. In case a german-ai or a german player move to fast in 41.

I see that the soviet-ai do better from 1942. in my latest game as germany I didnt start barbarssoa and I was attacked in spring 42. And my front was to narrow in so much of my forces was overrun in 43, dam, but it was a test.

 

[MagooNZ]

Seems like the V1.11 game is all or nothing on the eastern front. GER has to win in 41 or else be defeated. Would be better for historical accuracy if SOV could survive into 1942 with GER still having a chance of victory in 1942. This appears to be caused by inadequate GER rares/oil resources resulting in a drop of IC production.

Looking at my three options for SOV 1941 defence; decline purge & build forts is the easiest & most successful option. I'm working on the decline purge & not build forts option; but messed it up & lost 10 divs in an overrun attack. Barb started around 22 May. I needed to maintain defence in depth, and with stripping Baku of its 9 divs & reducing Fin front divs, I should be able to comfortably defend against GER. Will rerun this & this time keep the National Idea that gives +3 org (every little bit helps). Now I understand why Pioniere says its difficult, and Pioniere is probably trying the most difficult option: purge & not build forts. Mtn+Art are definitely excellent SOV divs in 1941, so I will put them all in the front line preferably with terrain advantages. Will also increase my corp size, having nothing less than 6 divs, except perhaps Mtn corps.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I see that the axis has more land units combined like it is now. That is somewhat correct to history in the early stages of Barbarossa in eastern-europe, but the idea was to have few emergency units via an ai-event. That might be good thing for the soviet-ai. In case a german-ai or a german player move to fast in 41.

The event chain Great Patriotic War(2651-2656) in which soviet union regains the org lost in the purges depends strongly on the amount that soviet union crumbles. If it looses more territory or more troops than expected, than it will regain org earlier than expected.

 

[Commander666]

Will also increase my corp size, having nothing less than 6 divs, except perhaps Mtn corps.

I think that works better with defensive play so more units can be under the best leaders. I quite like corps of 9 divisions but it is highly selective as I am sure you know. One tactic I employ is to have a corps of 9 MOTs who - basically - run around lending extra defense to nearby attacks. But if deciding to withdraw corps and exchange for fresher ones, then smaller corps give more stability to the delicate situation.

 

[stevep]

I think that works better with defensive play so more units can be under the best leaders. I quite like corps of 9 divisions but it is highly selective as I am sure you know. One tactic I employ is to have a corps of 9 MOTs who - basically - run around lending extra defense to nearby attacks. But if deciding to withdraw corps and exchange for fresher ones, then smaller corps give more stability to the delicate situation.

Agree there. As Russia I seek to have a front line of 9 or 12 divs in a single stack, on each province in the front line. Modern Inf 41 with one having Eng and the rest Art or AT, the ratio of the latter depending on the terrain. Then have some other Inf possibly and mobile units in corps of 3 divs moving quickly to defend points of attack. Normally have some Mtn corps dug in in the hills at the south of the line as well, although this may not be at full 12 div strength for each by the time the Germans come calling. Generally this line will hold again the AI although occasionally one province might be lost which can create a weakness.

I did use forts on my early games but as I gained more experience I decided they were too much of a cheat give the power large numbers of those can provide for the defence. Plus of course they are literally a sunken cost that can't be used when the fighting moves west.

 

[MJF]

Starting 1936 Hard/Agressive as neutral Costa Rica. Here we are August 1942:

Germany has done Barbarossa, taken India, took Republican Spain (who won the SCW) and liberated the Nationals, and can't seem to figure out how to clean up N. Africa.

Japan conquered China, liberating China-Nanjing. Vichy is in the Axis(?) and has amphibbed Guyana. Japan contro;ls Wake, but, as usual, isn't moving against the USA, but rather the S. Pacific area. That is as they planned. The USA is showing it's usual ineptitude vs Japan. Seems a grand island-hopping campaign is beyond game mechanics. The USA never moves against Japan, and lands 6 divisions in Casablanca. Other than adding an Air war at the Channel, the AI USA does nothing else vs the Axis, until it drops atom bombs, and even then, it does nothing else. This I believe is a major Axis advantage.

I still believe germany could've won Barbarossa, but only if their Generals were free to run it. I'm not convinced AH could've won vs USSR in the long run. I don't think they ever would "forgive" him for stealing their land. Coexistence would be impossible - in the end.

 

[Pioniere]

The event chain Great Patriotic War(2651-2656) in which soviet union regains the org lost in the purges depends strongly on the amount that soviet union crumbles. If it looses more territory or more troops than expected, than it will regain org earlier than expected.

Well I am aware that soviet has the event great patriotic war for helping out the soviets, but it has not helped the soviet-ai defense vs german-ai that much in aod 1.11. The original event might go so far back as hoi2-doomsday IIRC. If not the latest pathed version of ancient hoi2.

 

[MagooNZ]

Trying case 2 again: Decline purge & don't build forts. This time by 2 June 41 SOV 208 Inf, 15 Mot, 4 LArm, 35 Mtn, 2 HQ = 264 Divs, All 41 Inf/Mtn & II Mot. All brigaded divs. This was a little light as I was pushed back half a dozen provinces in the Nth (just Sth of Riga). GER DOW SOV on 5 June so a little later this time. I kept the Frustrated Expansionist ... for the extra +3 Org, although this only seemed to give my divs +2 organisation. So success with this option, human can stop GER AI in summer 1941. Only 13 Divs on Finland front, pulled back from Murmansk to give shortened front. All the rest on the GER/ROM front. Next one would be the hardest Case: Accept Purge & don't build forts.

Still I would have lost Case 2 against human opposition because if against AI is a challenge, against human is going to be bad.

 

[MagooNZ]

Well I am aware that soviet has the event great patriotic war for helping out the soviets, but …...

Don't most of the Great Patriotic War events, that restore land division org & morale after the purge, only fire after 1 Nov 1941, hence they are of no help to SOV during summer 1941 ?

EDIT: yes I should have qualified this with the SOV player being human, having to wait until 1 Nov. SOV AI player gets these events earlier.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I kept the Frustrated Expansionist ... for the extra +3 Org, although this only seemed to give my divs +2 organisation.

It is +3%. If you have 80 org before sliders and ministers and get +2% from sliders and +3% from ministers and ideas, than you get a max org or 80x1.02x10.3 = 84.048.

Don't most of the Great Patriotic War events, that restore land division org & morale after the purge, only fire after 1 Nov 1941, hence they are of no help to SOV during summer 1941 ?

Not exactly. But for human Soviet Union vs. AI Germany it is the most likely scenario. But if you able to mitigate or avoid loss of national terrirory, than you will not even get them by november. If however you lose 35% of your national territory before november, than the last GPW event fires before november. The event chain tries to balance the situation.

 

[PB-DK]

well, germany isn't overpowered... russia is just pretty weak, by 41 it should have 300+ infantry divisions, 400+ divisions total and 400+ base ic

however it only achieves around 260-300 divisions and that is just not enough to stop the germans, especially a human would just overrun them without even stopping at any point

ai on june 1941 - divisions = 325 infantry, 41 cavalry, 42 motorized, 4 larm, 1 arm, 11 mountaineers, 1 hq
Total of 425 divisions
plus 11 interceptors, 8 cas, 4 tac

609 effective ic
420 base ic

 

[PB-DK]

just in case anyone wants to test the scenario setup for SU

 

[bshirt73]

Trying case 2 again: Decline purge & don't build forts. This time by 2 June 41 SOV 208 Inf, 15 Mot, 4 LArm, 35 Mtn, 2 HQ = 264 Divs, All 41 Inf/Mtn & II Mot. All brigaded divs. This was a little light as I was pushed back half a dozen provinces in the Nth (just Sth of Riga). GER DOW SOV on 5 June so a little later this time. I kept the Frustrated Expansionist ... for the extra +3 Org, although this only seemed to give my divs +2 organisation. So success with this option, human can stop GER AI in summer 1941. Only 13 Divs on Finland front, pulled back from Murmansk to give shortened front. All the rest on the GER/ROM front. Next one would be the hardest Case: Accept Purge & don't build forts.

Still I would have lost Case 2 against human opposition because if against AI is a challenge, against human is going to be bad.

Oh boy, I've tried a couple of times without forts

Trying case 2 again: Decline purge & don't build forts. This time by 2 June 41 SOV 208 Inf, 15 Mot, 4 LArm, 35 Mtn, 2 HQ = 264 Divs, All 41 Inf/Mtn & II Mot. All brigaded divs. This was a little light as I was pushed back half a dozen provinces in the Nth (just Sth of Riga). GER DOW SOV on 5 June so a little later this time. I kept the Frustrated Expansionist ... for the extra +3 Org, although this only seemed to give my divs +2 organisation. So success with this option, human can stop GER AI in summer 1941. Only 13 Divs on Finland front, pulled back from Murmansk to give shortened front. All the rest on the GER/ROM front. Next one would be the hardest Case: Accept Purge & don't build forts.

Still I would have lost Case 2 against human opposition because if against AI is a challenge, against human is going to be bad.

Well, playing normal w/1.11 D, I accepted the purge, built forts and stopped the Germans cold.....they're dead meat. But I did that by not building the Soviet airforce at all. Saving the ICs for boatloads of infantry, tanks and so on. Of course, that's gamey as heck and don't think I'll do it again.

Accepting the purge "and" not building forts is a rough row to hoe. It's hard on my ego to watch the Nazis run through my strongest line like a hot knife through butter. haha.....good luck sir!

 

[Zardnaar]

People are struggling with Soviet 1936 start?

I purge and don't switch doctrines. I'll ic build to 1939 or so, or 1940. Trying to rush 41 tanks and produce them in numbers is not a great idea. Militia spam can also help.

You can have 20 to 50 armored divisions by 1941. Build some infrastructure in key provinces along with rare conversion refineries. Energy is a key shortage if you lose the Ukraine. Defend the river lines attack in 42 win. Build lots of 39 tanks upgrade them winter 41/42.

I'll load up later and have a crack.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Militia spam can also help.

This seems like a bad idea. Militia is meant for cases of extreme (short term) icd shortage. Soviet union 1941 is not such a case.

Better spend your icd into Inf-AT und Mtn-Art. Low Org from the purges needs to be offset by higher numbers, so it is spamming infantry that is needed. Inf is much more tc-efficient than militia and still reasonable cheap.

 

[Zardnaar]

This seems like a bad idea. Militia is meant for cases of extreme (short term) icd shortage. Soviet union 1941 is not such a case.

Better spend your icd into Inf-AT und Mtn-Art. Low Org from the purges needs to be offset by higher numbers, so it is spamming infantry that is needed. Inf is much more tc-efficient than militia and still reasonable cheap.

I only use a single line of them. Do they reduce casualties like vanilla Hoi2?

Kinda lost a game in testing. Didn't build enough infantry though so it was my fault.
Single line of medium and light tanks and militia gives you a decent amount of stuff in 1941.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Do they reduce casualties like vanilla Hoi2?

That depends on what exactly you mean by that.

In earlier versions of AoD militia used 10 manpower unlike 5 in doomsday. But i reduced it back to 5 manpower in AoD 1.08, so militia are not totally unreasonable. Pending many details it is possible that militia suffers lower manpower losses per hour of battle than Infantry. But losses in strenght are of course higher, so i would guess that militia is not suited for mitigating losses.

The most important aspect however is that militia has very poor firepower. The militia model 1943 does mitigate this weakness, but in 1941 it is most pronounced. It is soft attack 14 of unbrigaded Infantry vs. 2 of unbrigaded militia. So to get the same firepower of 18 unbrigaded Inf1941 you will need about 18 x7^2=882 militia divisions. Stacking penalty penalizes the lack of quality quite severly.

While infantry is about 7 times more expensive than militia in construction and still about twice as expensive in maintenance those costs are more than offset by the very poor quality of militia. For proper battles unbrigaded infantry will always be better than unbrigaded militia and for the brigaded versions it is not less pronounced.

Soviet union should have no trouble to build enough Inf1941-AT1940 by mid 1941 to utilize all available tc with just those Inf-AT. That is despite Inf-AT being the most tc-efficient unit(Mtn-AT may be on par). 500 Inf1941-AT1940 in battle use 1.16x3x500=1740 tc. With -15% supply consumption from Chief of Army it is still 1479 tc. It is this Chief of Army that is worth a lot.

Anything that mitigates your amount of Inf-AT to less than full utilization of available tc should be skipped. Building expensive stuff like armoured divisions can wait till after the start of the war. It is mainly Inf-AT you need. A few Mot-Art and a maybe not so small amount of Mtn-Art can supplement your bulk of Inf-AT.

 

[Commander666]

Militia spam can also help.

This seems like a bad idea. Militia is meant for cases of extreme (short term) icd shortage. Soviet union 1941 is not such a case.

True, militia is not a good unit for general defense of SU. But the claim "Militia is meant for cases of extreme (short term) icd shortage." totally misses what militia are best for - a cheap and quickly built trip wire.

For example, while an amphibious invasion of Archangel is probably unlikely, it is somewhat unnerving to just leave that beach unprotected. However, keeping an infantry there is probably a waste of an INF division (unless there is an airborne assault threat). But a single militia placed there will give enough warning for some nearby subs to attack the enemy TPs and cause the amphibious assault to abort. Very nice save for minimal expense since SU already got so many subs. Similarly, only militia on the Manchuria border can be adequate depending on situation and - if so - free up many INF to guard against Germany instead.

Other places like USA eastern seaboard can be well enough guarded if the USN is dominant. Somehow a few militia from Newfoundland to Miami (1 per beach province) is a lot better than nothing (except a reserve in Washington), and a lot more manpower saving than using INF instead (when you have good fleet to sink any amphib attempt).

So, best use of militia is much more than a "short term icd shortage" but actually part of a well prepared long term plan that can result in militia replacing INF (and vice-versa) or the militia just disbanded later on so that manpower can be recovered when appropriate. So, best use of militia can be complex, ingenious and bounded only by the player's creativity.

 

[Commander666]

...in 1941 it is most pronounced. It is soft attack 14 of unbrigaded Infantry vs. 2 of unbrigaded militia. So to get the same firepower of 18 unbrigaded Inf1941 you will need about 18 x7^2=882 militia divisions. Stacking penalty penalizes the lack of quality quite severly.

I think you do math differently in Germany than we were taught in Canada. The first casualty of your presentation is that you go for the most extreme example - 1941. So, if my SU gets attacked in 1940 (thinking MJF ) I will be alright because I missed your stated year (and can just spam militia)? Or maybe I get attacked 1942... so again missing your dire example?

The next "slight of hand" is that you conveniently figure on "unbrigaded" when nobody but a raw recruit would ever defend the SU without ART brigades on INF or militia - but including that seriously skews your whole premise against your favor (which is why you probably omitted a realistic comparison).

But the real error is in your exponential multiplication of infantry soft attack compared to militia. Stacking penalty does not equal the square root of strength.

If INF soft attack is 7, and militia is 2, then (in Canada at least), 1 INF has 3.5x the soft attack of a militia. And, "yes" it will take some additional militia to add extra soft attack to balance against the higher stacking penalty of the greater # of militia needed to get same total soft attack as the INF.

BUT not EIGHT HUNDRED more!!!!

 

[Commander666]

Soviet union should have no trouble to build enough Inf1941-AT1940 by mid 1941 to utilize all available tc with just those Inf-AT. That is despite Inf-AT being the most tc-efficient unit(Mtn-AT may be on par). 500 Inf1941-AT1940 in battle use 1.16x3x500=1740 tc. With -15% supply consumption from Chief of Army it is still 1479 tc. It is this Chief of Army that is worth a lot.

Anything that mitigates your amount of Inf-AT to less than full utilization of available tc should be skipped. Building expensive stuff like armoured divisions can wait till after the start of the war. It is mainly Inf-AT you need. A few Mot-Art and a maybe not so small amount of Mtn-Art can supplement your bulk of Inf-AT.

Your heavy push on Anti-Tank (AT) brigades versus ART is quite wrong. The majority of the German forces which battle to break the Soviet line is infantry (and not tanks). As such, the majority of SU brigades should be ART to give greatest soft-attack against German infantry targets. A mix of 2 ART/1 AT is OK for the front-line, but all ART on INF is probably better since ARM should be available where needed.

And your neglect of armored units to be on the line when war starts is begging for a colossal Soviet defeat and magnificent German blitzkrieg. FYI, when it matters where it matters as regards successful German exploits, it is always German armor that races to surround and trap the Soviet INF. SU needs ARM to stop those German tank exploits... and all the anti-tank brigades on all the already by-passed SU infantry divisions won't help you there. The only exception would be if SU player dedicates some INF divisions to permanently guard against German ARM exploiting a blitzkrieg. So, if I planned to always keep some INF in Moscow, Stalingrad or other rearward strategic place to stop the German armor that might break thru, then those dug-in divisions only having AT brigades would be wise. In fact, 1 unit in the defensive stack could have ENG brigade for max defense of those units against an exploiting corps of German panzers. Unfortunately, you miss mentioning this most important brigade totally which should be present (1 division only per defensive corps) for EVERY frontline province - especially the large corps (6-12 divisions/corps).

Lastly, your MOTs are also wrongly brigaded. Other than ARM, they are the only thing that can respond timely to a German blitzkrieg which sees the panzers racing to grab key provinces to create the conditions for massive SU defeat. Therefore, the SU MOTs need mostly AT or TD (not ART) to beat the German tanks which they will face alone.

EDIT: Mentioned ENG to complete the discussion.