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Tomnoddy

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I imagine this game is going for Event chains like HOI 2 rather than pure sandbox like vanilla HOI 2.

However, we're getting discussions about how France needs to fall reliably in 6 weeks so as not to screw up Barbarossa, this is achieved by giving them and even larger MP / IC advantage than they had historically (something like 2:1?)

I often play France however, so I think the German AI should react in some way to being stymied by a sucessful defence leading to a stalemate. Assuming I manage to get set up along river lines, Germany just keeps attacking dug in positions over and over, winning no battles and taking enormous losses for 2 years, till the soviets attack. Then it just allows them to walk in, and continues to mass forces on the borders of the low countries as Berlin falls... because that's what the script tells it to do (OK, this is HOI2 behaviour, but HOI 3 TFH is little different).

What it needs to do , firstly, is recognise the stalemate.

IE. Holding no more western provinces than 3 months ago
AND
Having an adverse kill:loss ratio (if France is holding the line but likely to run out of MP before Germany, keep attacking!)

Then it might want to check if the line can be held defensively with far fewer forces than currently stationed. This is almost a given, as the ardennes, the river rhine and various other terrain nasties sit between France and Germany.

... and now it can use the freed up forces for something else. Use your imagination... there's probably a LOT they could do

1) Invade Switzerland , possibly gaining a new axis to attack France in the process

2) Invade Greece and Yugoslavia. These happened historically, but German AI currently won't attack till France has fallen... yet there is nothing to stop them taking advantage of a stalemate.

3) Going into North Africa, Turkey , the med. Capturing Suez, even Gibraltar.

4) Trying a cheeky Sealion !
 

1alexey

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If anything, AI needs to be better at attrition warfare, and breaking well fortified lines.
Most of the time the AI can break player`s line, it just needs to know where and how to do it.

I did play France on very hard recently, and all I can say is, the AI is fairly decent at attacking a province, but doesn`t know when to put up a long grind, and when to break the attack.

There were cases where I lose more man on the defensive, than Germany attacking, but Germany didn`t know to hit me more, so that I run out of reserves and my line collapses or I have to thin my line so much, it can be breached in other places.

While it would be great to see AI being able to recognize the stalemate, it would be equally great to actually make player work for it.
 

Kantorin

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As i understand the game will be Open Sandbox ( they wrote that in the first developer diary) and will thus not have you forced to go any special way. I think ( and hope ) the AI will work dynamicly and allow to rewrite history ( also, that aspect sold well in EU4, so i guess they will keep it just to sell :) )
 

Tomnoddy

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Did Germany even have a plan B? When the Schlieffenplan failed in WWI they were kinda doomed.

They did, they went after Russia instead, knocked them out of the war then went back to finish off France. Unfortunately they took about a year too long doing that. By 1918 the other Axis nations were all collapsing , America was joining the war and the Allies were starting to field tanks.
 

Moppy771

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*Central Powers :p And the Allies were actually the Entente.
 

CoorsHeavy

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Did Germany even have a plan B? When the Schlieffenplan failed in WWI they were kinda doomed.
Mannstein claimed they didn't even have a plan A until '40. The assumption of the German high command was that an assault on the maginot could be attempted no sooner than 1942 if they honored the neutrality of Belgium and the Netherlands
 

Mr_B0narpte

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When the Schlieffenplan failed in WWI they were kinda doomed.
The 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk suggests otherwise.

Back on topic, I completely agree with the OP. Seeing an AI that can actually adapt to different situations would be great to see on a Hearts of Iron game.
 

unmerged(159022)

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I'm hoping the AI will have more options to do different things as in HOI2 rather than railroad the entire thing as in HOI3. I've had games in HOI2 where WW2 never happened. Poland either giving in to German demands for Danzig, or Britain never guaranteeing Poland, sometimes even both. And the game just went on from there with Russia and Germany sometimes going to war, sometimes not.

Some people might not like a WW2 game where there is a chance WW2 might not happen, but I loved the fact that it might not happen, or that it might happen in a completely different manner. I'm hoping HOI4 brings back these chances, they can weight the options to have the AI choose the historical route most of the time, but still have a chance for things to go off the rails. I really hope they can make the AI smart enough to handle some of these situations too, like if Britain doesn't guarantee Poland then the chance that Poland gives in to German demands for Danzig increases, stuff like that.

My favorite game of HOI2 actually was one of these alternate scenarios where Britain didn't guarantee Poland, and Poland not only gave into German demands, but then joined the Axis, so I as the USSR took on a combined Polish/German Axis without the Allies in the West to help. Never happens in HOI3.
 

Jorlaan

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As Denmark I can completely derail the Germans by defending on the first island. The Germans will try repeatedly to attack across that straight and never win, and they won't land behind me. From here out they don't continue with their other wars, so they never hit low countries, France never falls and they slowly burn themselves away until the Soviets invade. I actually outright killed about a million German soldiers as they tried to attack me across that straight over the course of the last game I did this. I lost about 50k.
 

Mr_B0narpte

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I'm hoping the AI will have more options to do different things as in HOI2 rather than railroad the entire thing as in HOI3. I've had games in HOI2 where WW2 never happened. Poland either giving in to German demands for Danzig, or Britain never guaranteeing Poland, sometimes even both. And the game just went on from there with Russia and Germany sometimes going to war, sometimes not.
HoI2:AoD 'perfected' this in the sense the game givings players the option to force the AI to always select the historical option - thus players have the choice of whether they want either a historical or ahistorical game. Seeing something like this in HoI4 would be great. One thing that makes certain games great is their flexibility and choice (especially when the consumer base for this game is extremely diverse in pretty much every way, excepts perhaps in their/our obsession with with history :D ).
 

phantomrider

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I'm hoping the AI will have more options to do different things as in HOI2 rather than railroad the entire thing as in HOI3. I've had games in HOI2 where WW2 never happened. Poland either giving in to German demands for Danzig, or Britain never guaranteeing Poland, sometimes even both. And the game just went on from there with Russia and Germany sometimes going to war, sometimes not.

Some people might not like a WW2 game where there is a chance WW2 might not happen, but I loved the fact that it might not happen, or that it might happen in a completely different manner. I'm hoping HOI4 brings back these chances, they can weight the options to have the AI choose the historical route most of the time, but still have a chance for things to go off the rails. I really hope they can make the AI smart enough to handle some of these situations too, like if Britain doesn't guarantee Poland then the chance that Poland gives in to German demands for Danzig increases, stuff like that.
My favorite game of HOI2 actually was one of these alternate scenarios where Britain didn't guarantee Poland, and Poland not only gave into German demands, but then joined the Axis, so I as the USSR took on a combined Polish/German Axis without the Allies in the West to help. Never happens in HOI3.


I am not sure that most people would really like a WWII game where WWII doesn't break out. Every once in a while in HOI2 things would go off track with Czechoslovakia but even there WWII did break out just a wee bit early with the Western allies fighting. On the other hand if you play a non German major or minor and you want to try alternate history by making non historical decisions diplomatically I can see alternate history and needing a better German AI as well. France might have been able to hold out against Germany but having a German AI not invade Belgium and Netherlands to bypass the Maginot line really shouldn't be a German AI choice. I do have a problem with Denmark holding out by doing an island defense in that the Germans in real life carried out a really good amphibious campaign against Norway despite the superiority of the western allies naval forces. The problem with alternate history is figuring out what would seem "logical" to the world leaders at the time to give seemingly "realistic" decision. For example, what would have convinced Stalin to attack Germany given his lack of confidence in the Red army after its performance against Finland. How bad would things have to be in the West before greed and dreams of World Conquest overcame fear of losing.
 

amalric de g.

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Germany's plan b could be to ally with soviets. Stranger things have happened than to put aside ideological differences when threatened.

lol
before Mister H. take a seat with Comrade S. the hell has to freeze. He hated all commis and wanted them d..d. An alliance with france or england against the SU, is more likely from a german viewpoint. An alternate WWII possibility is, the SU wins against the finns and annexed it. After that, Stalin decides to take sweden and norway. This should bring the Allies and Germany on one table.
 

Secret Master

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The problem with alternate history is figuring out what would seem "logical" to the world leaders at the time to give seemingly "realistic" decision.

The other elephant in the room is that no decision taken by any country is made in a vacuum.

Too many alternate history set ups assume that only one or two countries are involved. In fact, Germany changing one thing in its foreign policy during the 30s means that Britain, France, the Soviets, Poland, Hungary, Italy, Romania, Denmark, Spain (whoever is in charge at the moment), the US, and Japan all have a reaction to it. It's never a two-body problem, as my colleagues involved with physics would tell us. It's a 375 body problem.

This includes internal politics. Even if you make up a complete fantasy scenario where the British Union of Fascists wins a majority in Commons in 1936, you still have to account for what that does to relations with every country in the world. It doesn't just turn into "Well, Britain allies with Germany, so now go fight WWII with these countries reassigned to new factions." Maybe a fascist Britain gets into a war with Germany in 1938, not over the Czechs, but because of a disagreement in partitioning France. Maybe a fascist Britain causes a strong shift to the extreme political right in France, opening up the possibility of a Franco-British Coalition designed to annex portions of Japan's empire (for Britain) and portions of Belgium and the Netherlands (for France, so they can imitate Napoleon's conquests). Maybe a fascist Britain gets tangled in a war with the Soviets in a disagreement over what to do with Persia. And this is a fantasy scenario we are talking about.

This doesn't even address something a bit more realistic, such as Turkey joining the Axis or the republicans winning the Spanish Civil War. Let's say the republicans win the civil war in Spain, because during the initial outbreak of hostilities, more troops defect to the republican side. And let's say the Soviets send more aid, making the victorious republicans even more inclined to align with the Soviets. So the republicans see the Treaty of Munich and say, "Screw this. We can't count on anyone but Uncle Joe to back us." And they sign a mutual defense pact with the Soviets. Now what do you do with WWII and the M-R Pact? Would Germany even be willing to sign a pact with the Soviets if Spain is a Soviet ally or client state? Would the M-R Pact now include provisions for Spanish tungsten to be given to Germany? And how do France and Britain react? Does a COMINTERN Spain make Britain more or less likely to adopt certain policies in the Med? Keep in mind how Churchill might view a Communist Spain, given his own politics.

And what about Barbarossa? If an attack on the Soviet Union brings Spain into the war, is Barbarossa even feasible? Sure, defeating forces in Spain shouldn't be that hard once the Axis forces get past the mountains, but those are divisions not being used to either cover France or attack the Soviets. And if it takes two weeks to just get to Barcelona, does that give the British and US time to set up Lend-Lease for Spain? Does it open another front in the war, making the German and Italian positions untenable? Does it divert too many resources from the east, making even the historic gains Germany made in the first few months unlikely?

Oh, and if Germany is at war with Spain, does that mean no Portuguese tungsten or resources can be shipped to Germany?

Or does the leadership of Spain tell the Soviets "Sorry, we can't help you right now" when Barbarossa kicks off, choosing to save their own country while the Soviets fight in the Ukraine? What does that do to international relations during and after the war? Will Spain be punished after the war is over for leaving the Soviets to fight alone?

If Germany delays Barbarossa for a year to do an extra build up in preparation for an extra front in Spain, does this by definition make invading the Soviets a pointless exercise, more so than the historical attack?
 

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lol
before Mister H. take a seat with Comrade S. the hell has to freeze. He hated all commis and wanted them d..d. An alliance with france or england against the SU, is more likely from a german viewpoint. An alternate WWII possibility is, the SU wins against the finns and annexed it. After that, Stalin decides to take sweden and norway. This should bring the Allies and Germany on one table.

There were moves for the soviet union to enter axis. Both on the soviet and German side. There was exchange of military training and equipment. There was millions of tons in trade of strategic resources. Much of that in 40 and even 41. I agree that looking back it seems almost impossible but on the other hand in a game of "what if" the soviets axis alliance is a huge one, and certainly one that worried the allies.
 

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lol
before Mister H. take a seat with Comrade S. the hell has to freeze. He hated all commis and wanted them d..d. An alliance with france or england against the SU, is more likely from a german viewpoint. An alternate WWII possibility is, the SU wins against the finns and annexed it. After that, Stalin decides to take sweden and norway. This should bring the Allies and Germany on one table.
Well, there already WAS an alliance.
Granted, Military assistance was not in the cards but they cooperated in crushing Poland and there was a flow of raw material west and knowledge east.
And Hitler was nothing if not ...pragmatic.
 

amalric de g.

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There were moves for the soviet union to enter axis. Both on the soviet and German side. There was exchange of military training and equipment. There was millions of tons in trade of strategic resources. Much of that in 40 and even 41. I agree that looking back it seems almost impossible but on the other hand in a game of "what if" the soviets axis alliance is a huge one, and certainly one that worried the allies.

You are right about this points, but this worked only so long, as germany needed the SU resources. You only have to read the infamous pamphlet of Mister H. to know it.
 

Klausewitz

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@amalric:
Mr. H. is adamant that the world is too small and that the strongest, not the nicest will get all the goodies.
He is also quite convince that the Arian race needs mor Lebensraum.
Ideally he had pictured that in the east because WWI had shown that Lebensraum could be gotten quite easily there (one thing that is often overlooked is that 'Lebensraum im Osten' is not some kind of insane, out-of-nowhere idea: Germany held, for almost a year siginificant and very fertile areas in the east which could have made it impervious to british blockade) but if he deems the SU too valuable he might look for the Lebensraum somewhere else. Maybe colonies in Africa, maybe on the Balkans... with H. it is hard too tell. He would, however, have an ideologically ironclad reason why it is imperative not to attack the SU.