Germany can take all of Indonesia early in game 1936.

[ray15511]

Germany can take all of Indonesia early in game 1936. Take all of Indonesia and you have enough rubber and oil for your German economy.

As soon as I get 50 points, I justify war with Netherlands on single province. Once war is finished with Netherlands, then take all of Netherlands provinces and still you remain at war with Indonesia. Invaded northern Sumatra Indonesia with 6 divisions starting from captured port of Holland. Start invasion force from Holland immediately. Sign Non-aggression treaty with Italy. Request military access to Italy. Split your German fleet into 5 sections to cover the entire 15 sea zones escort path fleet to Indonesia from Holland. Each fleet can cover 3 sea zones. You must spend 150 points and get 10% extra range fleet logistics Admiral into general staff, or you come up short by 1 sea zone to Sumatra. Save the submarines for last 2 legs from Ethiopia port as they have range of 4000 miles. The 1st fleet from Holland can only go 3 sea sections. Port & 2 split fleets in Sardinia, Italy to cover all of Med and Atlantic sea section by straits of Gibraltar. Port the submarines in Ethiopia ports and split sub fleet into 2 parts to cover red sea and India ocean legs. You now have unbroken 15 sea zones path to Sumatra. Move additional 8 reinforcement divisions of troops to Italy Ethiopia port as the initial invasion fleet is preparing in Holland. Once you capture northern port in Sumatra, then move reinforcements from Ethiopia port to Sumatra port. Move most of your fleet and planes to Sumatra as you capture port & airfields. You should be able conquer all of Indonesia with 14 divisions in a couple of months after initial landings. You could have marines (amphibious & jungle fighting) available from training if you research marines at start of game and built marine divisions immediately. Bump up marines composition strength as you gain 5 or 10 army points. Once fleet is in Indonesia to cover all of Indonesia sea zones, you can invade all of Indonesia islands and provinces. A two division amphibious army only takes 14 days for invasion preparation. Amphibious army of 4 divisions takes 28 days. Take all of Indonesia and you have enough rubber and oil for your Germany economy. Once war is completed, Garrison the 14 divisions in Indonesia to take British and Australian provinces once war breaks out later with the Allies. Return the fleets and airplanes to Germany.

 

[Dalwin]

Yes that cheesy ploy has been knick named the Dutch Gambit. You don't have to remain at war with Indonesia even. In the peace conference just pass a few times and annex the DEI at the same time you annex the Netherlands.

People complain that the game is too easy and yet at the same time will employ strategies that are effectively exploits which take advantage of blind spots in the game design and with which the AI is unable to cope. Britain and or France should be guaranteeing the Netherlands at game start and when the Netherlands capitulates their colonies should fight on.

 

[permanently_afk]

So you use (well known) exploits and then complain that the AI is stupid/Game is easy. Booohoo.

As @Dalwin points out, exploity behavior is something the AI can't cope with. Further the simple solution (namely, the WAllies/SOV guarantee everybody who could enable snowballing for Germany) would break the game by disabeling the WT system. Good game design isn't easy. Exploiting the flaws is.

Edit: The AI will never be able to cope with exploity behavior, since it will always be rule-bound. Therefore, exploity behavior always relies on tricking the AI or the game rules (and the AI with them).

 

[Lykanion]

So you use (well known) exploits and then complain that the AI is stupid/Game is easy. Booohoo.

To be fair, @ray15511 didn't. At least not as far as I'm aware of.

 

[permanently_afk]

To be fair, @ray15511 didn't. At least not as I'm aware of.

*reread* Right. @ray15511 I do apologise for that assumption.

I am just peeved that some people in the forums tend to do that alot. And I am getting tired of the "The AI sucks because it is not skynet!" threads. Sure, there is plenty of things wrong, but patching over obvious exploits should be medium priority. High priority should be the BP and front performance.

Edit: Obivously, patching over exploits also requires game design decicisions and not just AI work. Confusing those two is not particularly helpful.

 

[Lumpy]

But is it an exploit, in terms of game design? I think we all agree that things like the Dutch Gambit are cheesy and shouldn't be possible without repercussions, but there are no mechanics in place to prevent them. Wars against European countries should kickstart WT instead of adding a measly 5% or so. Another alternative would be to let the Benelux countries start with guarantees of Britain.

 

[cellinis]

Wars against European countries should kickstart WT instead of adding a measly 5% or so. Another alternative would be to let the Benelux countries start with guarantees of Britain.

Perhaps it is an exploit that can lead to better game mechanics. Notably, WT and ensuing reaction taking into account the importance of a particular country?

 

[MadDjinn]

But is it an exploit, in terms of game design? I think we all agree that things like the Dutch Gambit are cheesy and shouldn't be possible without repercussions, but there are no mechanics in place to prevent them. Wars against European countries should kickstart WT instead of adding a measly 5% or so. Another alternative would be to let the Benelux countries start with guarantees of Britain.

Personally I think Britain shouldn't be guaranteeing the Beleux/Scandinavia/Iran-Iraq/Greece-Yugoslavia areas without taking their focus for those regions.

Alternately, you could just lock non-focus wars behind a minimum 20 WT requirement globally. Between Italy, Spain Civil War and Japan-China war, you get there in sufficient time from the '36 start.

 

[pedrito_elcabra]

But is it an exploit, in terms of game design? I think we all agree that things like the Dutch Gambit are cheesy and shouldn't be possible without repercussions, but there are no mechanics in place to prevent them. Wars against European countries should kickstart WT instead of adding a measly 5% or so. Another alternative would be to let the Benelux countries start with guarantees of Britain.

Britain should absolutely guarantee Benelux.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

The game doesn't capture a government in exile feature for this case, like the way Free French keeps most of the colonies when Paris falls. I believe in any war against the colonial powers, they have to be taken down in two steps like the French/Free French, with extra world tension to discourage such an early war start. WT from an Italian invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece could be the approximate amount added.

Furthermore, after a 1936 invasion of the Netherlands, there is absolutely no way Britain or France would allow Dutch colonies in Asia to be occupied by the Germans, even in the absence of a successful escape.

The Dutch Fleet should escape and support a Government-in-Exile, like in history. If there is no fleet left, I imagine a change of operational control over Indonesia/Borneo/etc under more extreme cases... basically switching puppet control to British/French. Either way, the Germans should have to take Asian colonies and go through a big navy to do it, no matter how they try it.

They shouldn't get them for free by taking down a European capital before World Tension has a chance to rise.

 

[bitmapmedivh]

The game doesn't capture a government in exile feature for this case, like the way Free French keeps most of the colonies when Paris falls. I believe in any war against the colonial powers, they have to be taken down in two steps like the French/Free French, with extra world tension to discourage such an early war start. WT from an Italian invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece could be the approximate amount added.

Furthermore, after a 1936 invasion of the Netherlands, there is absolutely no way Britain or France would allow Dutch colonies in Asia to be occupied by the Germans, even in the absence of a successful escape.

The Dutch Fleet should escape and support a Government-in-Exile, like in history. If there is no fleet left, I imagine a change of operational control over Indonesia/Borneo/etc under more extreme cases... basically switching puppet control to British/French. Either way, the Germans should have to take Asian colonies and go through a big navy to do it, no matter how they try it.

They shouldn't get them for free by taking down a European capital before World Tension has a chance to rise.

Indeed. There is a whole series of alternate scenarios from such an early war. But at the very least, the colony getting an event where it can choose between a new overlord or declaring independence, giving neighbouring colonial powers a puppet cb against them would do the trick. It might be a crude solution to let the colonial subject choose, but it's probably easier to script it like that, instead of Britain/France/USA/Japan getting an event. And it simulates reasonably well what happened with Overseas Territories, like Iceland, Indochina, Spanish Morocco and so on.

 

[Gort11]

Britain should absolutely guarantee Benelux.

It does feel like there's no way in hell that 1936 Britain and France would allow a strategy like this, so yeah, I'm on board with this.

 

[Zwirbaum]

Britain should absolutely guarantee Benelux.

In SP it will change nothing as Britain is pushover anyways for the Germany, Japan even Italy. If you want to eliminate allies quickly, you are going to eliminate them quickly anyways.
For MP it can change things around, but this stuff is probably already covered by the house rules or not.

I don't think that will change much.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

It might be a crude solution to let the colonial subject choose, but it's probably easier to script it like that, instead of Britain/France/USA/Japan getting an event. And it simulates reasonably well what happened with Overseas Territories, like Iceland, Indochina, Spanish Morocco and so on.

Yeah, I agree it's a crude fix. The problem is puppets can be just taken so easily at the end of a war when WT is low.

For smaller nations that are swallowed up, I think the WT set up works nicely.

For colonizers, even ones as weak as Belgium and the Netherlands... It's just hard for me to believe Germany would get away with ALL the colonies with so little resistance. I can't think of a way to fix it other than forcing a two step process, like Free France analogue, or your idea with the colonies having a say.

Cool thing about colonies choose is it could take level of independence into account somehow.

 

[lihp]

But is it an exploit, in terms of game design? I think we all agree that things like the Dutch Gambit are cheesy and shouldn't be possible without repercussions, but there are no mechanics in place to prevent them. Wars against European countries should kickstart WT instead of adding a measly 5% or so. Another alternative would be to let the Benelux countries start with guarantees of Britain.

This.

There is a reason why AH didnt start WW2 by attacking the Netherlands. Simply because such an opener would have kickstarted WW2 easily.

 

[that-guy-is-it]

While 100% agree that if you are using exploits in the mechanics to get ahead, you should not be complaining much, OP is right. Germany invading the Netherlands in 1936 should trigger a World War, or at the very least should scare all of its neighbors into joining the Allies. While I accept the AI cannot deal with this, there needs to be something to address this hole. Maybe they can give the nations of the Benelux (and Switzerland) special status, so if they are attacked too early the Allies declare war immediately, or are given the option to, which the AI is likely to take.

 

[ForsakenSoldier]

This is a cheese move the whole community has known about since 6-6-16

 

[Kanaric]

So you use (well known) exploits and then complain that the AI is stupid/Game is easy. Booohoo.

Easy exploits = easy game. The game actually is too easy if it's easy to exploit thing. It seems you are using the term exploit as an excuse for poor design blaming the player when instead the exploit is a flaw in the game that makes it easier.

Reminds of people who whined about the AWP in CS. If you are good at it and you want to win you use it. Simple. If I am going for MP victory or achievement hunt i'm "exploiting" the easyness of the game like any good player would.

 

[Celdur]

Dudes, just make a few medium tank divisions and crush all the AI of any country, the game is extremely easy in SP, even with +5 on all enemies.


Play multiplayer, i like crushing/teaching noobs.

 

[melkor88]

There is a simple solution, which is to just not attack them until '39. Then the AI at least has a chance.