Germany Buildup - CIC run comparisons

[Galleblære]

I have been trying to follow this as a general guideline, seem to run into problems with for lack of a better term build order, this is the proper allocation of MILs. I have realized that previously I had been neglected the airforce, with detrimental effects. Now it seems that rifles are in short order, or struggling to get the right amount of infantry divisions built to trigger Anschluss. Had stumbled across on an older post, which discussed build order and was heavy on airforce with minimal on infantry equipment (rifles/guns), support, and artillery. What are some common suggestions? I think I have spent over a hundred hours now just restarting the build up.

Anschluss etc can be solved by making a single one battalion unit. Keep building these, and once you have enough change the unit into one of the regular infantry units. Voila, you will easily reach 1 million+ manpower in use, but lack lots of guns

In the unit editor, chose "new template"

 

[blahmaster6k]

Building NIC early as Germany is a terrible idea unless you're memeing for sea lion because the naval war doesn't matter until France falls, and even then you can build a cheap sub or destroyer/CA fleet without needing a lot of dockyards. That 12 NIC being built to make up for the lack of foci should have been 12 more MIC, or some synthetic refineries. Also, building both CAS and TAC is wasteful in terms of research. Germany wants CAS if it wants one of the two, you never need TAC because the air zones in Europe are small. You can also easily get by with only 5 factories on infantry weapons the entire game because you capture so many from Austria/Czech/Poland/Benelux/France. Personally, I keep 15 factories on fighters and 5 on CAS from the start of the game. New factories will primarily go on Medium tanks, mechanized, and Fighters.

 

[Simon_9732495]

you never need TAC

I use them as air volunteers in Spain and in Japan. Later they naval bomb Northern Sea and Norwegian Sea from Hamburg or Denmark. Kills all UK/France U-Boats and I can trade with everyone with 100% trade efficiency. 2-3 factories are enough and the high efficiency at game start can be used.
And they can be useful if you do something around the Med or in Africa. (E.g close air support from France for the Invasion of Gibraltar.)

You can also easily get by with only 5 factories on infantry weapons the entire game because you capture so many from Austria/Czech/Poland/Benelux/France.

That's true. Maybe my 8 later 10 and later 15 guns is a bit too high. I need some for Lend Lease (5000 Rep Spain, 5000 China) and I always want to have 96-120 Infatry divisions full equipped in 1939. Maybe I should go with less infantry or leave it not fully equipped, becuase, as you say, Germany is swimming in Guns after Poland and France.

New factories will primarily go on Medium tanks, mechanized, and Fighters.

You never need mech

 

[ladner]

Want to thank the forum, this seemed to help out my effort, except for issues in the low countries which seems to be a standard theme. The issue, yet again was air inferiority. RAF throws closed to 2.5-3k fighters the offensive stops before it even begins. It is starting to become very tiresome, but this is outside of this topic.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Want to thank the forum, this seemed to help out my effort, except for issues in the low countries which seems to be a standard theme. The issue, yet again was air inferiority. RAF throws closed to 2.5-3k fighters the offensive stops before it even begins. It is starting to become very tiresome, but this is outside of this topic.

is that RAF number with vanilla?

 

[ladner]

is that RAF number with vanilla?

Yes no mods all DLC.

 

[ladner]

What are general thought on converting some of the early MILs to CIVs? Too much of a penalty on the later build up?

 

[blahmaster6k]

What are general thought on converting some of the early MILs to CIVs? Too much of a penalty on the later build up?

In vanilla it can be worth it as the USSR - you get war economy at the end of your first focus which gives conversion speed bonuses, and you don't get involved in a big war until 1941. Aside from that, it's not usually worth it.

 

[Black_Shade]

I use them as air volunteers in Spain and in Japan. Later they naval bomb Northern Sea and Norwegian Sea from Hamburg or Denmark. Kills all UK/France U-Boats and I can trade with everyone with 100% trade efficiency. 2-3 factories are enough and the high efficiency at game start can be used.
And they can be useful if you do something around the Med or in Africa. (E.g close air support from France for the Invasion of Gibraltar.)


That's true. Maybe my 8 later 10 and later 15 guns is a bit too high. I need some for Lend Lease (5000 Rep Spain, 5000 China) and I always want to have 96-120 Infatry divisions full equipped in 1939. Maybe I should go with less infantry or leave it not fully equipped, becuase, as you say, Germany is swimming in Guns after Poland and France.


You never need mech

You also don't need a huge army of mediums until after France is dead. Half a dozen LT divisions is more than enough to overrun France in a week or two. I typically don't build mediums until MT2 is done, building any MT1 is a complete waste of production.

 

[Simon_9732495]

You also don't need a huge army of mediums until after France is dead. Half a dozen LT divisions is more than enough to overrun France in a week or two. I typically don't build mediums until MT2 is done, building any MT1 is a complete waste of production.

See here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ow-countries-as-germany.1403200/post-26713002

 

[blahmaster6k]

You also don't need a huge army of mediums until after France is dead. Half a dozen LT divisions is more than enough to overrun France in a week or two. I typically don't build mediums until MT2 is done, building any MT1 is a complete waste of production.

While the part about not needing a huge army of mediums until after France falls is true, producing 6 LT divisions is a waste of production as well since those LTs will also be obsolete. The only good use for LTs beyond memey overrun strats with 2 width light tanks is as armored recon in tank divisions and in early game wars against minors like Japan vs China.

You're better off producing fighters and CAS instead of LTs.

Besides, as Germany you can easily have 2-3 40 width medium 2 tank divisions by the time you declare on Poland, and that's enough to knock France out as well with green air.

 

[Secret Master]

While the part about not needing a huge army of mediums until after France falls is true, producing 6 LT divisions is a waste of production as well since those LTs will also be obsolete. The only good use for LTs beyond memey overrun strats with 2 width light tanks is as armored recon in tank divisions and in early game wars against minors like Japan vs China.

Well, if we are going to discuss LARM in the context of meme strategies, then I could argue that you don't need any tanks at all to defeat Poland, France, and Benelux.

It took four weeks, but the last time I intentionally did a no-tanks run against France, it wasn't that painful.

There was also that one time I just plain forgot to use my tanks against France and Benelux. My tanks were sitting on the border with Denmark, and I got in a hurry and left them behind when ordering the attacks. That took five weeks, because I had actually built them and didn't have more planes like I did in the intentional no tanks run.

 

[sterrius]

About NIC even being a "naval germany" you only need to start building when you start getting the NIC Focus. They should be the last 3 NIc´s before the Molotov treaty and Danzing or War. The last +2NIC focus should be done during the 40´s.

This is because from 36 to 39 you have nothing worth of building for germany, at least not something that is gonna survive in the ocean for more than 1 year and you can´t afford a SUB III´s and Cruiser Subs before 39.
After that you can finally build your NIC Plus France you can easily make things worse for the allies.

 

[Black_Shade]

While the part about not needing a huge army of mediums until after France falls is true, producing 6 LT divisions is a waste of production as well since those LTs will also be obsolete. The only good use for LTs beyond memey overrun strats with 2 width light tanks is as armored recon in tank divisions and in early game wars against minors like Japan vs China.

You're better off producing fighters and CAS instead of LTs.

Besides, as Germany you can easily have 2-3 40 width medium 2 tank divisions by the time you declare on Poland, and that's enough to knock France out as well with green air.

The LT are never obsolete because of their speed, and end up doing a huge chunk of the conquering in Russia. Despite my mediums outnumbering them 3:1 in division count and 6:1 in terms of tanks in the field. The speed really makes a big difference- once you punch a hole in a line breakthrough and SA are useless, speed is the only thing that matters and the LT will always win there until MT3 have replaced every MT2 in your armored divisions.

I'd also rather kill Poland and France in a week with essentially zero casualties than have it take a couple of months as I slowly plod through with a grand total of TWO tank divisions- the only way to make it go faster would be to launch heavy attacks with your infantry which probably isn't a good idea.

There's also another benefit LT have early on- they only cost steel. You don't have to do any trades to make them, which gives you extra civs and therefore more factories longterm

 

[sterrius]

Decided to play a run for this topic. @Zauberelefant

Stopped 1 June with " danzig or war " underway.
I was just finishing my last dockyards to prepare for Cruiser Sub´s + SUb III .

106 MILS (started jan-fev 38)
20 Dockyards
116 CIV´s
12 Refinerys
28 Infrastructure (Not counting autobahn here).

I Played as i would in a MP game (easier to adapt to SP later). So outside of 1 CIC on trade from day 1 i avoided it. On a MP players would trade with GER and give enough CIC to compesate any import plus extra.

As you can see i did infrastructure. It did affected my total of factories but its what i would do on a normal game. 4 States get them from Focus.
That infrastructure focus mostly on states that can afford 7-8+ factorys from 36 to 41. (As you get extra slots with Concetrated/dispersed).

The added bonus is the provinces with huge resources are the same with huge build slots.

I used XP to get enough to make a good army and build only rifles and a Submarine with 500IC cost to determine how many MIL and Dock IC i made.
Unfortunaly at free trade and on SP of course i run out of iron even with research.

anyway even with that problem was able to build
61 500IC subs (unfortunaly they stopped producing ^^) and
529.026 Rifles = 264k MIL IC.

as you can see the photo i did lacked a massive amount of steel. So no new ships after 37 and quite a bit of MIL IC loss.
but its ok as you can get a idea of how many things you can produce. Just add a 10-30% boost to all the IC above and you will not be too far from the real number.

Focus order
-> Rhineland -> Four Year plan -> Autarky -> Hermann goring -> Kdf - Warren -> Research -> Anchllus -> Autobahn -> Army Innovation -> Treaty USSR

-> German War Industry -> Sudetenland -> Vienna Award -> Claim Czechoslovakia (divided with hungary) -> Eastern Claims -> Naval Rearmament -> Naval Effort

-> U-Boat Effort -> Molotov Pact -> Danzig or War (Finish early august).

Political power

-> Josep Goebbels - > War Economy (+3CIC) -> Schact -> Free Trade -> 100pp on Worker conditions -> Bormann (+15% PP).
Should be early 37 and nothing else affect CIC or MIL construction.
Just hold 150PP for Walther Funk when you finish building CIC (to me the sweet spot is 90-110 CIC with anchluss around end/early 38).

 

[Simone]

While the part about not needing a huge army of mediums until after France falls is true, producing 6 LT divisions is a waste of production as well since those LTs will also be obsolete. The only good use for LTs beyond memey overrun strats with 2 width light tanks is as armored recon in tank divisions and in early game wars against minors like Japan vs China.

Sorry for going a little ot here, but
Aren't they usefull as light art later on? I usually transform them into lspart and group them with those marm-divisions.

Great infos here otherwise!

 

[Zauberelefant]

Decided to play a run for this topic. @Zauberelefant

Stopped 1 June with " danzig or war " underway.
I was just finishing my last dockyards to prepare for Cruiser Sub´s + SUb III .

106 MILS (started jan-fev 38)
20 Dockyards
116 CIV´s
12 Refinerys
28 Infrastructure (Not counting autobahn here).

I Played as i would in a MP game (easier to adapt to SP later). So outside of 1 CIC on trade from day 1 i avoided it. On a MP players would trade with GER and give enough CIC to compesate any import plus extra.

As you can see i did infrastructure. It did affected my total of factories but its what i would do on a normal game. 4 States get them from Focus.
That infrastructure focus mostly on states that can afford 7-8+ factorys from 36 to 41. (As you get extra slots with Concetrated/dispersed).

The added bonus is the provinces with huge resources are the same with huge build slots.

I used XP to get enough to make a good army and build only rifles and a Submarine with 500IC cost to determine how many MIL and Dock IC i made.
Unfortunaly at free trade and on SP of course i run out of iron even with research.

anyway even with that problem was able to build
61 500IC subs (unfortunaly they stopped producing ^^) and
529.026 Rifles = 264k MIL IC.

as you can see the photo i did lacked a massive amount of steel. So no new ships after 37 and quite a bit of MIL IC loss.
but its ok as you can get a idea of how many things you can produce. Just add a 10-30% boost to all the IC above and you will not be too far from the real number.

Focus order
-> Rhineland -> Four Year plan -> Autarky -> Hermann goring -> Kdf - Warren -> Research -> Anchllus -> Autobahn -> Army Innovation -> Treaty USSR

-> German War Industry -> Sudetenland -> Vienna Award -> Claim Czechoslovakia (divided with hungary) -> Eastern Claims -> Naval Rearmament -> Naval Effort

-> U-Boat Effort -> Molotov Pact -> Danzig or War (Finish early august).

Political power

-> Josep Goebbels - > War Economy (+3CIC) -> Schact -> Free Trade -> 100pp on Worker conditions -> Bormann (+15% PP).
Should be early 37 and nothing else affect CIC or MIL construction.
Just hold 150PP for Walther Funk when you finish building CIC (to me the sweet spot is 90-110 CIC with anchluss around end/early 38).

Impressive. You built an agency? Did collaboration missions?

 

[MR2]

Decided to play a run for this topic. @Zauberelefant

Focus order
-> Rhineland -> Four Year plan -> Autarky -> Hermann goring -> Kdf - Warren -> Research -> Anchllus -> Autobahn -> Army Innovation -> Treaty USSR

-> German War Industry -> Sudetenland -> Vienna Award -> Claim Czechoslovakia (divided with hungary) -> Eastern Claims -> Naval Rearmament -> Naval Effort

-> U-Boat Effort -> Molotov Pact -> Danzig or War (Finish early august).

Why Molotov Pact?

Everyones thoughts on claiming Czechoslovakia - take it all or split w Hungary?

 

[sterrius]

Impressive. You built an agency? Did collaboration missions?

errr, i forgot agency existed haha. Im still getting used to spending CIC there XD.
but i don´t recommend creating a agency before having all the CIC/MIL you actually need

So if it was me i would create around mid 38. There is no need for a MAjor to create a agency before 38 (Unless you're japan).

Why Molotov Pact?

Everyones thoughts on claiming Czechoslovakia - take it all or split w Hungary?

on MP you need molotov.
on SP you can easily ignore it, but i still do it because i like to keep this episode of history real . It affect almost nothing either way as you only do it on 39,


on MP you split with hungary, the player there really needs it and its just 2-3 CIC a+ 2-3 MIC.
on SP there is no reason , take it all

 

[walt526]

IIRC, if you do the Pact and then renege, then the USSR will immediately declare war on you. Because it's not a defensive war for them, they'll lose a key national spirit (I forgot what's called--maybe something like "The Great War"). The downside is that then you're in a two front war while you're battling for Western Europe; the upside is that the USSR will be much weaker than they would be when you were to declare war on them later on. You also don't have to reconquer territory in Poland.

I usually do the Pact and abide by it to buy time. But doing it, reneging, and then fighting a two front war can be doable in SP. Just hold the line in the Eastern Front with infantry until you're done with Western Europe and transfer your armored divisions and CAS to the East.