Germany Buildup - CIC run comparisons

[Simon_9732495]

Because I hadn't figured out the speed bonus of Guderian (he works as a Designer!) and with attachees, his XP are not as valuable, and the Research speed bonus pales next to XP expenditure and 100% bonuses from NF.

Yes, the Land XP from him doesn't make much difference, but so does the naval XP from the other guy. You can buy some fuel and train your navy for a month. Navy XP is the easiest to get.

But I'd say the research bonus is valuable. You research land doctrine all the time with one slot for the first 5 years. Because you are using bonus from focus or from army XP on every land doctrine tech, the theorist bonus is reduced in it's effect. Without this it would be (365*5*0.15=) 273 days of research. If the effect it's halfed it's still at least 1 tech more.

 

[cunningstunts]

Navy XP, on the other hand, is hard to come by and 20% research speed bonus is huge.

That is, if you need to make the Kriegsmarine actually a threat.

It's possible to complete the entire submarine branch of the Trade Interdiction doctrine by September 1939 without sacrificing much research time. You get 2 bonuses from a NF in Italy's focus tree and 2 in the German focus tree. Exercise your subs for naval XP to reduce the research time for any other techs you might want in the Trade Interdiction tree.

Use the initial XP gains to refit parts of the starting Kriegsmarine for the purposes you're planning to use it for. You could minelayers to your subs, and depth charges to the older LCs to hunt enemy subs in the waters near Germany and Norway (preferably with air cover). As soon as you have 1940 subs researched, max them out with your XP. All the XP after you're building 1940s subs you can use all your naval XP on doctrines and tech.

 

[ladner]

You are quite welcome. You've been registered here a long time, so I hope you believe a fellow old timer on this forum that the community is still as helpful as it was back in the early 2000s.

Thank you, had taken a long hiatus from the forum. Enjoying HOI 4, on vacation/holiday so away from the computer looking forward to trying some of these strategies. I have to balance my time now so gaming and posting on the forums aren’t as frequent as when my account was created.

 

[Galleblære]

No building infrastructure or converting MIC in these strategies right?

 

[porta80]

No building infrastructure or converting MIC in these strategies right?

No feel free to try, but i bet it doesn't increase the performance.

 

[Simon_9732495]

No building infrastructure or converting MIC in these strategies right?

Infrastructure:
I build max Infra in the province Muntenia for the Oil after i annex Romania. For steel it's not needed because theres enough in France and Poland (with "collaboration governement" missions) and for aluminum i annex Hungary.
Short before Barbarossa I upgrade some 4-5 Infra provinces in the east to 6 for supply.
I don't build Infra for the build speed modifier because it's not worth it: See -> https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ructure-for-the-build-speed-modifier.1388133/

Converting MIC to CIV in the beginning:
I have no experience.

 

[Zauberelefant]

No building infrastructure or converting MIC in these strategies right?

Testing with Autobahn Focus was inconclusive. I would abstain from the Investment, as its effect is very small (<10%) and that proved to be not worth it.

Converting MIC is most certainly not a good strategy, as its always more costly building CIC and converting to MIC or vice versa.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Testing with Autobahn Focus was inconclusive. I would abstain from the Investment, as its effect is very small (<10%) and that proved to be not worth it.

What?
"Reichsautobahn" gives +11% to +25% build speed for 4 provinces with a lot of building slots. (I think Thüringen alone has 9 free slots at that time and gets upgraded from 6 to 10 (+25%).) It's hard to believe that that's not worth it. Please source of the prove.

On a second thought:
Am I reading it wrong and you are talking about constructing Infrastructure for build speed and not about the "Reichsautobahn" focus?

 

[Black_Shade]

What?
"Reichsautobahn" gives +11% to +25% build speed for 4 provinces with a lot of building slots. (I think Thüringen alone has 9 free slots at that time and gets upgraded from 6 to 10 (+25%).) It's hard to believe that that's not worth it. Please source of the prove.

On a second thought:
Am I reading it wrong and you are talking about constructing Infrastructure for build speed and not about the "Reichsautobahn" focus?

Yeah the autobahn focus seems like a brainer to take early if you're going CIC. I actually think it's worth it to take before the research slot and soviet armor treaties. Once you finish KdF Werke, take the autobahn and it gives you 4 provinces with 100% infrastructure that should be the only ones you build CIC in until you get fill them up.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Yeah the autobahn focus seems like a brainer to take early if you're going CIC. I actually think it's worth it to take before the research slot and soviet armor treaties. Once you finish KdF Werke, take the autobahn and it gives you 4 provinces with 100% infrastructure that should be the only ones you build CIC in until you get fill them up.

We are talking about a speed factor going from 1.7 to 2.0 in four provinces. That's a 17%(1.3x1.7=2.21 vs 1.3x2.0=2.6) speed increase, but look at the opportunity cost: to effect this, I had to skip the naval foci and build another 5 NIC, gaining nothing.
You could of course decide to not take air Innovations or refining tech, but I think these are more valuable than a slight building speed boost for some provinces. I tend to run out of building slots anyway in 1940 the latest, so I don't see the point in doing that faster.

 

[Zauberelefant]

What?
"Reichsautobahn" gives +11% to +25% build speed for 4 provinces with a lot of building slots. (I think Thüringen alone has 9 free slots at that time and gets upgraded from 6 to 10 (+25%).) It's hard to believe that that's not worth it. Please source of the prove.

On a second thought:
Am I reading it wrong and you are talking about constructing Infrastructure for build speed and not about the "Reichsautobahn" focus?

As mentioned in the above post, speed increase in 1937 is 17%, tops, and come 38, I will build MIC, and then the 25% mefo bonus makes that sort of not so important.
And the proof is in the pudding: I did the test run and needing to build more NIC, because I had to not take the naval foci left me with no additional factories to speak of. Getting free factories beats building them faster in this tree.
Also, I figured that Autobahn needs to come after both kdf and Göring Werke, as in both instances, you get more than 17% of your available CIC, instantly.

 

[Simon_9732495]

We are talking about a speed factor going from 1.7 to 2.0 in four provinces. That's a 17%(1.3x1.7=2.21 vs 1.3x2.0=2.6) speed increase,

It's actually:
1 time level 6 to 10 -> 1.6 to 2.0 (+25%)
2 times level 7 to 10 -> 1.7 to 2.0 (+17.6%)
1 time level 8 to 10 -> 1.8 to 2.0 (+11.1%)
And you can build for a long time in theses slots.

As mentioned in the above post, speed increase in 1937 is 17%, tops, and come 38, I will build MIC, and then the 25% mefo bonus makes that sort of not so important.

That's not correct.
You get the +25% in Thüringen. And you get it also for MILs. On top of Mefo Bills. Infrastructure build speed bonus is calculated serpertaly after all other modifiers.

Also, I figured that Autobahn needs to come after both kdf and Göring Werke

Sure. These are even more important.

 

[Zauberelefant]

It's actually:
1 time level 6 to 10 -> 1.6 to 2.0 (+25%)
2 times level 7 to 10 -> 1.7 to 2.0 (+17.6%)
1 time level 8 to 10 -> 1.8 to 2.0 (+11.1%)
And you can build for a long time in theses slots.


That's not correct.
You get the +25% in Thüringen. And you get it also for MILs. On top of Mefo Bills. Infrastructure build speed bonus is calculated serpertaly after all other modifiers.


Sure. These are even more important.

While I don't refute your calculations, my testing did not show anything close to significant as a result. 5 NIC by Focus are every bit as valuable as 12 levels of infrastructure.

The reason for this is simple: the infra effects get diluted, because I need to build also in Westfalen, Rhineland, Moselland, Sachsen, Württemberg, Oberbayern, as I run out of slots in Autobahn states.
So, overall buildings, the net speed bonus comes down to some 5 % or less.
This is why I did a test run instead of spreadsheets theorycrafting: you need to look at the whole picture.

My Assessment: maybe Autobahn and the war economy focus together are worth it, If only for the PP saved, but then we need to check against the integrate war economy focuses, that because of trade bonuses might come out stronger.

 

[Simon_9732495]

I see your point with the other focuses, because they have value as well.

For me 5 NIC are not as nearly as valueable as the benefit of "Reichsautobahn" because the 10 NIC plus the ones I capture are enough for my German U-Boat Flottilla, even if I invade the USA. But that's my ignorance towards navy as Germany.

Another very subjective thing is Molotow Ribbentrop. IIRC theres not much benefit in it. I always take it, because for me it's a unwritten rule to do MRP before attacking Poland.
I could easily leave out MRP and do the NIC focuses.

Then it comes down to synthetics and rubber early or "Reichsautobahn" and maybe "War economy".

I think about it that way:

• Synthetic bonus I use for the 1941 fuel refining to have it for Barbarossa. It's fine, if I get it late.
• Rubber bonus I'd like to have earlier but I cannot really fit it in my focus plan. It's some CIVs for import differnece but not too many.
• War economy gives 6 MILs. That alone might be worth it and I think not changing to war eco until that focus is not a big deal. (Sometimes I get some Aces and change early. I'm not really sure on that.)
• But "Reichsautobahn" is a 100% for me. In the 100% slots I build most of my refineries.

Why don't you try a Germany benchmark run until 01.06.1939 like defined in this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/1-9-german-economy-benchmark-thread.1387471/

Then you can compare your run with a lot other results.

 

[Zauberelefant]

I see your point with the other focuses, because they have value as well.

For me 5 NIC are not as nearly as valueable as the benefit of "Reichsautobahn" because the 10 NIC plus the ones I capture are enough for my German U-Boat Flottilla, even if I invade the USA. But that's my ignorance towards navy as Germany.

Another very subjective thing is Molotow Ribbentrop. IIRC theres not much benefit in it. I always take it, because for me it's a unwritten rule to do MRP before attacking Poland.
I could easily leave out MRP and do the NIC focuses.

Then it comes down to synthetics and rubber early or "Reichsautobahn" and maybe "War economy".

I think about it that way:

• Synthetic bonus I use for the 1941 fuel refining to have it for Barbarossa. It's fine, if I get it late.
• Rubber bonus I'd like to have earlier but I cannot really fit it in my focus plan. It's some CIVs for import differnece but not too many.
• War economy gives 6 MILs. That alone might be worth it and I think not changing to war eco until that focus is not a big deal. (Sometimes I get some Aces and change early. I'm not really sure on that.)
• But "Reichsautobahn" is a 100% for me. In the 100% slots I build most of my refineries.

Why don't you try a Germany benchmark run until 01.06.1939 like defined in this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/1-9-german-economy-benchmark-thread.1387471/

Then you can compare your run with a lot other results.

I see your point with the other focuses, because they have value as well.

For me 5 NIC are not as nearly as valueable as the benefit of "Reichsautobahn" because the 10 NIC plus the ones I capture are enough for my German U-Boat Flottilla, even if I invade the USA. But that's my ignorance towards navy as Germany.

Another very subjective thing is Molotow Ribbentrop. IIRC theres not much benefit in it. I always take it, because for me it's a unwritten rule to do MRP before attacking Poland.
I could easily leave out MRP and do the NIC focuses.

Then it comes down to synthetics and rubber early or "Reichsautobahn" and maybe "War economy".

I think about it that way:

• Synthetic bonus I use for the 1941 fuel refining to have it for Barbarossa. It's fine, if I get it late.
• Rubber bonus I'd like to have earlier but I cannot really fit it in my focus plan. It's some CIVs for import differnece but not too many.
• War economy gives 6 MILs. That alone might be worth it and I think not changing to war eco until that focus is not a big deal. (Sometimes I get some Aces and change early. I'm not really sure on that.)
• But "Reichsautobahn" is a 100% for me. In the 100% slots I build most of my refineries.

Why don't you try a Germany benchmark run until 01.06.1939 like defined in this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/1-9-german-economy-benchmark-thread.1387471/

Then you can compare your run with a lot other results.

That's beside the point of my tests. Also, porta80 minmaxed that pretty much by doing a "meme Run" (his words), while I was going for a comparison of strategies under "close to real" conditions, meaning I would need to trade and there would be benefits to doing things at other points, like picking focuses (soviet treaty is better early on) or research.

If I can be bothered, I might join in, however.

 

[porta80]

That's beside the point of my tests. Also, porta80 minmaxed that pretty much by doing a "meme Run" (his words), while I was going for a comparison of strategies under "close to real" conditions, meaning I would need to trade and there would be benefits to doing things at other points, like picking focuses (soviet treaty is better early on) or research.

If I can be bothered, I might join in, however.

I did also a few normal runs under real conditions and you can compare your results to those.
There are 2 more in this thread as well (post #24) including produced equipment: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tween-a-cic-build-and-pure-mic.1389873/page-2

Feel free to share your results.

 

[Zauberelefant]

I did also a few normal runs under real conditions and you can compare your results to those.
There are 2 more in this thread as well (post #24) including produced equipment: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tween-a-cic-build-and-pure-mic.1389873/page-2

Feel free to share your results.

Thanks, I didn't follow through with that thread, will do.

 

[ladner]

I have been trying to follow this as a general guideline, seem to run into problems with for lack of a better term build order, this is the proper allocation of MILs. I have realized that previously I had been neglected the airforce, with detrimental effects. Now it seems that rifles are in short order, or struggling to get the right amount of infantry divisions built to trigger Anschluss. Had stumbled across on an older post, which discussed build order and was heavy on airforce with minimal on infantry equipment (rifles/guns), support, and artillery. What are some common suggestions? I think I have spent over a hundred hours now just restarting the build up.

 

[Simon_9732495]

I have been trying to follow this as a general guideline, seem to run into problems with for lack of a better term build order, this is the proper allocation of MILs. I have realized that previously I had been neglected the airforce, with detrimental effects. Now it seems that rifles are in short order, or struggling to get the right amount of infantry divisions built to trigger Anschluss. Had stumbled across on an older post, which discussed build order and was heavy on airforce with minimal on infantry equipment (rifles/guns), support, and artillery. What are some common suggestions? I think I have spent over a hundred hours now just restarting the build up.

I think I start with
8 on Guns
3 Support
1 Arty
1 Motorized
9 Fighter
3 CAS
3 TAC

Later I increase guns to 10 (or 15) support to 5 motorized to 5 and Fighter to 25 (later 50 or 75)
In mid to late 1938 I start producing Medium Tanks and use all new MILs therfore.

 

[Zauberelefant]

I have been trying to follow this as a general guideline, seem to run into problems with for lack of a better term build order, this is the proper allocation of MILs. I have realized that previously I had been neglected the airforce, with detrimental effects. Now it seems that rifles are in short order, or struggling to get the right amount of infantry divisions built to trigger Anschluss. Had stumbled across on an older post, which discussed build order and was heavy on airforce with minimal on infantry equipment (rifles/guns), support, and artillery. What are some common suggestions? I think I have spent over a hundred hours now just restarting the build up.

You can pretty well calculate what you need for Anschluss, as your factories on infantry equipment start with full efficiency:
910x24[infantry equipment total needed for Anschluss]/
[Time til you want Anschluss to happen in days, or focuses before Anschluss x70]=inf eq production/day.
Historical Anschluss would be Focus#11, so it's [21840/770]=28.36, or 3.2 Factories.

For all else, see Simon's post.