Germany Buildup - CIC run comparisons

[Zauberelefant]

Dear fellow Paradoxians and armchair generals,

it's groundhog day again! What is the best buildup as Germany? Yours truly has run a few tests to determine the best general strategy for a CIC based buildup as Germany. Be assured that there are some surprises!

As you probably know, @Secret Master has already run a comparison between MIC and CIC buildups. I found those tests very interesting. But I kept asking myself: Is the Meta really the Meta? Or are we holding to concepts that are wrong or not completely understood?

To answer this, once and for all (jk, please submit constructive criticism), I devised a test. Using the same national focuses in largely the same order (more on this on the individual tests), picking the same advisors, taking the same decisions, I hoped to conclusively answer which CIC run (keep that in mind!) would yield the highest factory count on September 22nd, 1939, a day I decided would usually see the annexation and participation of Poland, the 3rd victim of german expansion. I chose that to have a chance to test for collaborations and their effectiveness vs not using them.

The parameters
I did four runs, changing a strategic aspect in every run and counting the NIC, MIC and CIC on Sep 22nd 1939. The NFs were only changed if the strategy specifically called for that. Industry was built: CIC exclusively until Jan 1st, 1938. Any unfinished CIC was allowed to carry over into 1938, maximum 1 CIC per queue. After that, it was MIC, NIC and Synths. Also, to simulate a "standard" buildup, 2x7 AA, 13 Airfields and 10 Radar were added. 6 NIC were built and 10 synths at the very end (plus the one from focus). Trade was commenced if the resource in question was at -4, so -3 would see no trade, but -4 would. The equipment built was LARM, INF, ART, FTR, CAS, MOT, SUP, MARM when it came available. FTR was targeted to reach 25 MIC and MARM 20 MIC, ART and MOT at 10 MIC.
This was done so that the resources Germany is lacking are actually traded for. An intelligence Agency was started in mid 1938 (except when noted otherwise) because it`s so darn useful even if you don't want collaboration governments. Agencies had then 4 Decryption upgrades. I usually took the Promises of Peace decision in 1936 and sent an Attachee to Japan. Game at regular difficulty, historical AI on.

Spoiler: The National Focuses

Rhineland, Four Year Plan, Autarky, Hermann Göring Werke, KdF Werke, Army Innovations I, Pact with Soviet Union, Air Innovations I, Research slot, Coal Liquidization, Anschluss, Naval Rearmament/Naval Effort, Synthetic Rubber, Sudetenland, First Vienna Award, Reassert Eastern Claims, Fate of Czechoslovakia (picked Slovakia), Molotov-Ribbentrop, Danzig or War

Spoiler: The test runs

1st Run: Historical focuses, Free trade, no collaborations
Advisors/Laws: Free Trade, Schacht, Hess, IG Farben, Goebbels (because of PoP), Armour designer, War Economy (after Anschluss), Theorist, Funk (after Sudetenland), Chief of Army, Closed Economy when at war.

Result:
21 NIC, 114 CIC, 83 MIC

Total of over 215 Factories, this is the baseline for all other tests.

2nd Run: Historical focuses, Free trade, 2x collaborations in Poland (75%) and 1 in France
Advisors/Laws: Free Trade, Schacht, Hess, IG Farben, Armour designer, Canaris, War Economy (after Anschluss), Theorist, Funk (after Sudetenland), Chief of Army, Chief of Staff, Closed Economy when at war

See how I marked Canaris there? He is essential for the collaboration strategy, as you need to upkeep the network while two agents make collaboration contacts.

Result:
21 NIC, 114 CIC, 98 MIC

We have a clear winner here: at 15 Factories over the baseline test, despite the investment in a collaboration in France (which in 1939 would be roughly 3.4 MIC) without getting anything out of France (yet), this clearly is superior. Collaborations are for winners.

3rd Run: Ahistorical focuses, early Anschluss and Czech annexation, Free trade, 2x collaborations in Poland (75%) and 2 in France (75%)

This time, we try to get the valuable lands out of the AI's incompetent clutches and try to get a boost to our economy in one fell swoop! As we are having a very early Sudetenland, we are not taking Schacht, and of course the order of NFs will change:

Rhineland, Four Year Plan, Anschluss, Autarky, Hermann Göring Werke, KdF-Wagen, Sudetenland, First Vienna, Fate of Czechoslovakia (with Slovakia), Research slot, Army Innovations I, Pact with Soviet Union, Naval Rearmament/Naval Effort, Air Innovations I, Coal Liquidization, Synthetic Rubber, Reassert Eastern Claims, Molotov-Ribbentrop, Danzig or War

Advisors/Laws: Free Trade, Hess, War Economy, Goebbels, IG Farben, Theorist, Armour designer, Chief of Army, Chief of Staff, Chief of Staff, Limited Exports, Closed Economy when at war

This Run yielded more PP than the former ones, because I did not use Promises of Peace to account for the early War Economy and did not pay 75 PP for Schacht. This enabled the Limited Exports law in 1939, as I saw a quarter of my CIC being eaten by imports.

Result:
22 NIC, 113 CIC, 101 MIC

So, this is a bit more than the historical focuses run, despite having an additional collaboration mission in France. This would then make the strategy slightly superior. However, taking all the annexation focuses early on makes WT spike early on. That is something that a german player may want to avoid, at least when using AI mods or plaing MP. Also, the run had almost 1.5 years more time to build compliance in Czechoslovakia - which could pretty much account for the difference to the 2nd Run.

4th Run: Historical focuses, without Free trade, 2x collaborations in Poland (75%) and 2 in France (75%)
Everyone and his Granny advise to use Free trade early on, and on paper, that makes perfect sense: you get a 10% construction bonus over the limited exports law in effect in 1936, get a research speed bonus, bonus dockyard and factory output, what's not to like?
Well, turns out that in late 1938/1939 you are paying a LOT for trade, so this is a drawback. Also, you are paying 300 PP to change your trade law back and forth, which is a lot. In this run, Refineries were built along with MIC from 1938 onwards, to compensate for the increased demand in rubber. (note: Usually, I postponed Synths because in free trade, they are rubbish)

National Focuses:
Rhineland, Four Year Plan, Autarky, Hermann Göring Werke, KdF-Wagen, Army Innovations I, Pact with Soviet Union, Air Innovations I, Research slot, Naval Rearmament/Naval Effort, Anschluss, Coal Liquidization, Synthetic Rubber, Sudetenland, First Vienna, Reassert Eastern Claims, Fate of Czechoslovakia (picked Slovakia), Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Danzig or War

Advisors/Laws: Hess, Krupp, Schacht, War Economy, Armour designer, Canaris, Theorist, Chief of Army, Funk (after Sudetenland),, Chief of Staff, Chief of Staff, Navy Designer

This time, the Attachee was sent to Spain to allow for early war economy without the Anschluss, Schacht is back in Action, we have an additional chief of Staff and a Navy Designer above the free trade/early annexation run and:

Result:
24 NIC, 123 CIC, 102 MIC

15(!) CIC beyond the early annexation run. That is a LOT. This is the same margin by which non-collaborations were beaten by a collaboration run. This would allow to start producing MIC before 1938 and come out with more equipment compared to the 1936-1938 CIC run. Also please consider that the early annexation run had its war economy bonus even earlier than this one. However, there might be a better timing for the annexation focuses to allow austria/czechoslovakia to take more industry focuses

I can honestly say I was quite surprised on my findings. But of course, my approach has weaknesses, as it would not account for a "no agency" approach (I considered that useless, as intelligence is such a vital field) and it did not account for equipment in the field (which might be very interesting). Also, some people could find my choice of Focuses or their order questionable. Also, this was one run only per strategy, so my results may be off - however, the main difference being the builds of Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland under historical AI, I am confident that the test holds water.


On the research side, I did find that not taking Free Trade was not such a big deal, it felt I came 1 or 2 techs short in 1939, which I deemed acceptable. It gets partially balanced by being able to take more designers (however, I think going with the +20% trade interdiction theorist is the best).
So, the three main findings are:

Collaborations are definitely worth it, the investment is minimal compared to the gains (however, not tested with No Agency)

Free Trade is not a compulsory choice

Early Anschluss is not a winning strategy

I think that you could start building the first MIC in the 4th quarter of 1937 or do Anschluss a bit earlier than I did to get the most out of the focus tree and start piling up equipment.
And finally: I need to do this again with MIC builds and ideally determine the difference in equipment stockpiles.

This was my test, please read carefully and feel free to contribute!

 

[Petite]

nice and helpful

 

[Secret Master]

I did find that not taking Free Trade was not such a big deal

I only want to add that I consider Free Trade for Germany to be subpar in SP in general. The inability to set up intelligent trade and production agreements between Italy, Germany, and the minors makes it a net loss in many situations.

 

[Zauberelefant]

In terms of economy, i think adding some Mic in 1936/37 would be OK in terms of total Industrial capacity, but would allow to build more advanced equipment when it comes available, like Scout planes or MARM.

 

[Simon_9732495]

If you are interested in strategies for economic buildup for Germany you might be intersted in that thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/1-9-german-economy-benchmark-thread.1387471/

In my opinion your findings (collaborations, anschluss) are correct.

I'm not sure about free trade. On paper it seems to be always worth it.

Concerning Advisors I'd say Bormann, Hess, should be the start. Then trade law (free trade or export focus) and then Krupp or Schacht.

I think you miss economic potential by not taking "Reichsautobahn" (4x100% Infrastructure), because that increases building in that states a lot. And there are a lot slots in that states.

 

[seattle]

I only want to add that I consider Free Trade for Germany to be subpar in SP in general. The inability to set up intelligent trade and production agreements between Italy, Germany, and the minors makes it a net loss in many situations.

Free Trade is particularly bad in a MIC start.
I thought Germany had enough steel, but man was I wrong. Free Trade only works with a CIC start where you don't use up many resources in the early years.

 

[Zauberelefant]

If you are interested in strategies for economic buildup for Germany you might be intersted in that thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/1-9-german-economy-benchmark-thread.1387471/

In my opinion your findings (collaborations, anschluss) are correct.

I'm not sure about free trade. On paper it seems to be always worth it.

Concerning Advisors I'd say Bormann, Hess, should be the start. Then trade law (free trade or export focus) and then Krupp or Schacht.

I think you miss economic potential by not taking "Reichsautobahn" (4x100% Infrastructure), because that increases building in that states a lot. And there are a lot slots in that states.

Well, according to what I did, there is a gap between free trade and limited export that is beyond sample variety. I think the reason is that 10% construction speed is paltry, as you usually get 30% from tech, 10 from advisor and 70-80% from infra anyway.

And infra does not add more slots, industry tech does that.

 

[Black_Shade]

Well, according to what I did, there is a gap between free trade and limited export that is beyond sample variety. I think the reason is that 10% construction speed is paltry, as you usually get 30% from tech, 10 from advisor and 70-80% from infra anyway.

And infra does not add more slots, industry tech does that.

You switch back to limited exports once you start building mils, you shouldn't ever be trading for ANYTHING except rubber. That's it. If you have to trade for steel or aluminum, you're doing it wrong. You should be swimming in PP as you should start with Hess+Bormann, so switching back to limited exports in 1938 is not a problem at all. The reason why your free trade build went bad is because you were apparently wasting a ton of civs on trade, which you shouldn't be doing. There's also some nice timing in that around the time you switch to mils, you take sudetenland, allowing you to immediately replace Schacht with Funk. I also tend to replace Hess with Canaris around this time, as he's nice to have so you can get 2x collaboration in France and Poland.

What Simon means is that the autobahn increases your build speed, as you get max infrastructure in 4 provinces that happen to have a ton of factory slots- you basically shouldn't build anything in Franken, Thuringen, or Hannover until you take the focus, which gives you max infrastructure in those provinces and another 10-20% boost on construction speed. These states also have a lot of slots, ~20 by the time you should start build in them, so having max infrastructure actually does help you get a few more factories out in the end.

 

[Zauberelefant]

You switch back to limited exports once you start building mils, you shouldn't ever be trading for ANYTHING except rubber. That's it. If you have to trade for steel or aluminum, you're doing it wrong. You should be swimming in PP as you should start with Hess+Bormann, so switching back to limited exports in 1938 is not a problem at all. The reason why your free trade build went bad is because you were apparently wasting a ton of civs on trade, which you shouldn't be doing. There's also some nice timing in that around the time you switch to mils, you take sudetenland, allowing you to immediately replace Schacht with Funk. I also tend to replace Hess with Canaris around this time, as he's nice to have so you can get 2x collaboration in France and Poland.

What Simon means is that the autobahn increases your build speed, as you get max infrastructure in 4 provinces that happen to have a ton of factory slots- you basically shouldn't build anything in Franken, Thuringen, or Hannover until you take the focus, which gives you max infrastructure in those provinces and another 10-20% boost on construction speed. These states also have a lot of slots, ~20 by the time you should start build in them, so having max infrastructure actually does help you get a few more factories out in the end.

So, I pay not only 300 pp to go from limited export to free trade and back in a shorter time, I also need a redundant advisor to be able to pay that - Hess will make back the 450 pp for himself and law switching in 1940. I could better use the first 300 pp to get Schacht, an attachee to spain and war economy, or take Krupp and Schacht.

I doubt that having less free trade will eventually see large benefits, as besides rubber, you need to import loads of tungsten and oil. These resources aren't available under closed Economy either, so I would doubt that some 10% construction speed and a little Research speed do actually justify the cost. Under limited PP, with the resources at hand, I think not changing trade laws and investing in advisors yields better results.

 

[Black_Shade]

So, I pay not only 300 pp to go from limited export to free trade and back in a shorter time, I also need a redundant advisor to be able to pay that - Hess will make back the 450 pp for himself and law switching in 1940. I could better use the first 300 pp to get Schacht, an attachee to spain and war economy, or take Krupp and Schacht.

I doubt that having less free trade will eventually see large benefits, as besides rubber, you need to import loads of tungsten and oil. These resources aren't available under closed Economy either, so I would doubt that some 10% construction speed and a little Research speed do actually justify the cost. Under limited PP, with the resources at hand, I think not changing trade laws and investing in advisors yields better results.

But your PP isn't limited? You're literally drowning in it. Also, you lose Hess by October 1939 anyways, so it's not like you were going to keep him on.

edit: It is possible that staying limited economy also works, I'll try a test timing when you get the advisors set and war economy going between the two, it's possible that if you do manage to get war economy much earlier it might be better to stay on limited.

 

[cunningstunts]

So, I pay not only 300 pp to go from limited export to free trade and back in a shorter time, I also need a redundant advisor to be able to pay that - Hess will make back the 450 pp for himself and law switching in 1940. I could better use the first 300 pp to get Schacht, an attachee to spain and war economy, or take Krupp and Schacht.

I doubt that having less free trade will eventually see large benefits, as besides rubber, you need to import loads of tungsten and oil. These resources aren't available under closed Economy either, so I would doubt that some 10% construction speed and a little Research speed do actually justify the cost. Under limited PP, with the resources at hand, I think not changing trade laws and investing in advisors yields better results.

The bonuses to construction speed and research speed are more significant than you might be appreciating. Germany can't win a war of attrition - you need the best tech and doctrines to conquer Europe quickly. You can switch back to Limited Exports once you start building MILs in 1938.

Also, what are you building in 1938 that requires lots of tungsten? You don't need lots of medium tanks to beat France and Benelux quickly. You need air superiority, CAS, stacked soft attack in your armour divisions (which you can get from L-SPAA) and speed to exploit your breakthrough.

 

[Zauberelefant]

The bonuses to construction speed and research speed are more significant than you might be appreciating. Germany can't win a war of attrition - you need the best tech and doctrines to conquer Europe quickly. You can switch back to Limited Exports once you start building MILs in 1938.

Also, what are you building in 1938 that requires lots of tungsten? You don't need lots of medium tanks to beat France and Benelux quickly. You need air superiority, CAS, stacked soft attack in your armour divisions (which you can get from L-SPAA) and speed to exploit your breakthrough.

If you are not playing Vanilla, you want MARM, you get artillery, that costs tungsten. And Rubber or tungsten - it's the same if I trade for it. Which I will, as synths are crap before 39.

And you might overestimate the benefit of 10% building speed of free trade.
70% infra, schacht, construction 1 see already a 90% speed bonus on a base 100%. So, free trade adds 1/19th of speed in top. 5.5%. that's how much you get. And a general research bonus matters little if designers and advisors and experience get your necessities covered.

Krupp, Rheinmetall, tank Designer, that's what you need. Everything else is nice to have, but inconsequential. With lim Exports, I missed 2 or so techs by Danzig. And I took loads of support, inf equipment, tank techs, electronics, all industry techs.

Not a big difference, if I can have significantly more Factories.

 

[Simon_9732495]

70% infra, schacht, construction 1 see already a 90% speed bonus on a base 100%. So, free trade adds 1/19th of speed in top. 5.5%. that's how much you get.

That's not 100% correct.
The formula is:

Build speed = Number of factories * 5 * (1 + modifiers in %) * (1 + Infra Level / 10)​

​

The differnce between sum of modifiers = 20% and sum of modifiers = 30% is 1.3/1.2 - 1 = 8,3%

 

[Zauberelefant]

@cunningstunts @Black_Shade

I will nevertheless try out the free trade cancel strategy. Given that I need to change as little as possible to the limited exports run in OP, what would you recommend as order for laws/advisors at at which point should I Switch back to limited exports?

I am thinking once I use 10% of CIC for non Essential Imports, but that might hamstring me.

 

[Black_Shade]

Here's one game with Free Trade-

Advisors- Bormann, Hess, Free Trade, Schacht, Attache (NS), War Economy, Krupp. Got War economy in the end of '36. In the end, I've got all the military staff+halder, guderian, canaris, funk, and tank company. I'm missing naval, aircraft, and material designers, but I'll have aircraft prior to FW 190 finishing (november). I switched from free trade back to limited exports in october '38- that's about the time that the ~5-10 dockyards I built were coming online and steel was starting to be a problem.

NF: Rhineland, Four Year Plan, Autarky, Hermann Göring Werke, KdF Werke, Research Slot, Autobahn, Army Innovation, Soviet Treaty, Naval Rearm, Naval Effort, Anschluss, Sudetenland, First Vienna Award, Fate of Czechoslovakia (picked Slovakia), Reassert Eastern Claims, Coal Liquidization, Synthetic Rubber, Molotov, Danzig.

I did 2x collaboration governments in Poland, 2x collaboration governments in France. Poland 2x was done in June '39, France 2x done August 30 '39. Got lucky with a critical success on both, so had 75% collaboration.

Final factory count on Sept 2 (fall of poland): 129 civs (9 from trade), 24 dockyards, 117 mils. Only 6 refineries, but another 6 will be done by October 1st, so my fighter production only took a ~1 month hit. This includes the Polish factories.
Declared war on France, Benelux on 20 September, France capitulated on 15 October.

 

[porta80]

How did you count the Factorys? Especially CIC?
Why do you build AA? Useless
Why build 10 Radar? and where?
Why 13 Airfields? and Where?
Who is that 20% trade interdiction theorist?

 

[Zauberelefant]

How did you count the Factorys? Especially CIC?
Why do you build AA? Useless
Why build 10 Radar? and where?
Why 13 Airfields? and Where?
Who is that 20% trade interdiction theorist?

Factories were counted by means of UI top bar.

AA is not useless in my book. They reduce the impact of AI bombing quite well and drop the occasional bomber.

Radar isn't useless either and Locations don't matter for the purposes of this comparison. (2x3 Radar would be enough, as I found Out, but that requires another tech Research)

Airfields are critical for the western campaign, so moselland, rhineland, Württemberg.

The trade interdiction theorist is Saalwächter.

 

[Black_Shade]

Staying on limited exports:

Advisors- Bormann, Schacht, Attache (NS), War Economy, Krupp. Got War economy August 18 1936-4.5 months faster than free trade game. The final advisors are the same as the previous game, as I didn't take Hess this time around and his PP generation ends up being a wash from switching the economy laws around if you go free trade.

NF: Rhineland, Four Year Plan, Autarky, Hermann Göring Werke, KdF Werke, Autobahn, Research Slot, Army Innovation, Soviet Treaty, Naval Rearm, Naval Effort, Anschluss, Sudetenland, First Vienna Award, Fate of Czechoslovakia (picked Slovakia), Reassert Eastern Claims, Coal Liquidization, Synthetic Rubber, Molotov, Danzig.
Only difference here is I swapped Autobahn and research slot- I looked at what I had to research and there wasn't anything critical that getting one tech half way done sooner would have helped on, so I figured maybe autobahn 70 days earlier might translate into another couple factories.


I did 2x collaboration governments in Poland, 2x collaboration governments in France.

Final factory count on Aug 27 (fall of poland): 128 civs (10 from trade), 21 dockyards, 119 mils. This includes the Polish factories. First 6 refineries done by 1 september, but the next batch wont be done until much later, I kind of forgot to switch to refineries. So to be fair to the previous test, I should probably have 5-10 less mils than I do now.


Soooo, it turns out it really doesn't matter much. Free trade is better by the difference in my refinery count, so about 5-10 mils. Getting faster war economy kind of washes out the benefit of the faster construction speed. The other added benefit of free trade is you'll probably get a couple extra techs. In terms of min/maxing, that's the way to go, but the difference is smaller than I thought it would be.

 

[porta80]

Factories were counted by means of UI top bar.

AA is not useless in my book. They reduce the impact of AI bombing quite well and drop the occasional bomber.

Radar isn't useless either and Locations don't matter for the purposes of this comparison. (2x3 Radar would be enough, as I found Out, but that requires another tech Research)

Airfields are critical for the western campaign, so moselland, rhineland, Württemberg.

The trade interdiction theorist is Saalwächter.

AA is useless, for the CIC invest you can get 6-7 MIC that build you fighters instead.
Against Poland you dont need radar, against france its ok, but also not needed.
airfields are ok.
what trade law are you at the end using?

 

[Zauberelefant]

AA is useless, for the CIC invest you can get 6-7 MIC that build you fighters instead.
Against Poland you dont need radar, against france its ok, but also not needed.
airfields are ok.
what trade law are you at the end using?

You obviously did not follow in the point of these runs: If I build AA, I build it in every Run. Because it's not only about maximizing industry, but finding the best way to do it. If you don't want to build AA, that's fine, but shouldn't affect my findings.
And the AA Investment costs 3.47 MIC, to be exact, which won't produce a lot of fighters in late 1939.

Radar is a force multiplier both in north sea and domestic air defence, as it maximizes the number of aircraft I can bring to battle.
Together with AA, I could keep the bombing Happy AI at 97% disruption. I can take that for 3.5 MIC.

The trade law in the end was limited exports for the final two runs, as stricter trade laws weren't necessary.

I do understand that having 11 synths would not be necessary on closed economy, that radar and AA don't contribute to factories, and if I was purely after maximizing IC some things must be different.

But I kept these factors static and while this can be further optimized, the grand line of strategy looks like not switching trade laws and doing historical focuses is the best approach hands down.

I have yet to test for earlier trade law Switch with both workhorses though.