It may be a gamey exploit but, as Germany, I have often allied with Nationalist Spain during the SCW and then used Spanish troops to take Gibraltar, southern France and northern Africa. (In Arma/DD.) Imagine my surprise when Franco left my alliance in April 1939 after I had buffed his regime up with blueprints and resources. After several reloads I realized that this was unavoidable. Is there an event behind this? Is this tactic no longer viable because Franco will leave the axis every time?
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To be honest, I never saw an AI nation leave an alliance (apart from events, of course).
This is, however, avoidable. See my AAR (link in my signature). In that AAR, Franco stays loyal to the Axis.
This is, however, avoidable. See my AAR (link in my signature). In that AAR, Franco stays loyal to the Axis.
Great AAR but it doesn't really answer my question. Why is Nationalist Spain leaving the Axis? I reloaded 10-12 times and they always leave ~March/April 1939 but there doesn't seem to be an event triggering it. No change in minister's etc. All I can see is that once Franco takes over after the SCW Nationalist Spain's government becomes "paternal autocrat" instead of "facist."
What about your relations to NatSpain during that time? On very rare occasions (depending on the leaders on July 17 1936, not the leaders on the day thereafter) your relations start at -125.
No problem with relations. I began influencing Natl. Spain at the start of the SCW. Allied once relations were +200 (Oct 1936). Finished SCW and then, in March/April 1939, with reations still at +200 I received a message that Natl Spain had broken our alliance and all my divisions stationed in Spain were sent to the SR pool. What gives?
As you pointed the reload won’t do much since the information is already imputed in the saved game.
After the SCW SPA goes all the way to isolationist, since you GER leader of the alliance aren’t yet at war, nations can leave your alliance.
It is a bit like with FRA in certain rare situations… with the “wrong” luck in the 2 French election results (since 36 to late 39); FRA might have sufficient interventionism after the CZE annexation event to DoW to GER.
Back to your specific situation… since the trigger conditions are already “printed” into the save game, short of modifying the save game, you will have to "trick" SPA into the alliance with some console “help”.
Don’t wary if SPA doesn’t have many troops near Gibraltar (I doubt, usually it has many units there surrounding it), ENG will take much time to reinforce Gibraltar (usually not before the Vichy event fires, even then with CW and not with British troops).
Myself, when playing GER or ITA in the "old days" would go with an early SPR annexation (before SCW event fires) and all would be well with the release of a SPA puppet after Vichy event (A late game SPR is bad both for AI GER & human GER as the first will likely "brake" the AI and the later will always DoW to GER when the belligerence is very high).
Now with the retooling days & such like, as GER doesn’t have transports at the start, the time for a SPR quick invasion is very short… (SPR and FIN are the only countries you can invade in early 36 without sending the game into an early 2nd WW).
Currently (unless playing with ITA), I will go with the “annex who ever won the SCW and march all the way to Gibraltar” option after Vichy… much less work/trouble
After the SCW SPA goes all the way to isolationist, since you GER leader of the alliance aren’t yet at war, nations can leave your alliance.
It is a bit like with FRA in certain rare situations… with the “wrong” luck in the 2 French election results (since 36 to late 39); FRA might have sufficient interventionism after the CZE annexation event to DoW to GER.
Back to your specific situation… since the trigger conditions are already “printed” into the save game, short of modifying the save game, you will have to "trick" SPA into the alliance with some console “help”.
At the war start use “acceptall” (F12) to bring SPA back into the Alliance, now SPA can no longer leave the Alliance (don’t forget to turn it “off” after you use it, jut type the command again).
Don’t wary if SPA doesn’t have many troops near Gibraltar (I doubt, usually it has many units there surrounding it), ENG will take much time to reinforce Gibraltar (usually not before the Vichy event fires, even then with CW and not with British troops).
Myself, when playing GER or ITA in the "old days" would go with an early SPR annexation (before SCW event fires) and all would be well with the release of a SPA puppet after Vichy event (A late game SPR is bad both for AI GER & human GER as the first will likely "brake" the AI and the later will always DoW to GER when the belligerence is very high).
Now with the retooling days & such like, as GER doesn’t have transports at the start, the time for a SPR quick invasion is very short… (SPR and FIN are the only countries you can invade in early 36 without sending the game into an early 2nd WW).
With ITA is “easier” (there is more time), but likely you will have to settle for peace in ETH in order to keep your belligerence low (either that or pause the game, annex ETH, release ETH and take the descent hit).
Currently (unless playing with ITA), I will go with the “annex who ever won the SCW and march all the way to Gibraltar” option after Vichy… much less work/trouble
Ask them for military access while they are in your alliance.
Once they leave your alliance, DoW them and force puppet them (don't annex or they'll loose all their troops).
Alternatively you could DoW Portugal on April.
Once they leave your alliance, DoW them and force puppet them (don't annex or they'll loose all their troops).
Alternatively you could DoW Portugal on April.
Thanks Tanaka and Elbasto for the replies. SPA is one of the best allies in the game for GER (in terms of MP and location) and I would hate to loose it.
Tanaka, is the isolationist shift a foregone conclusion in every game? Is there a % chance of a shift or is it hard coded into the AI? (Incidently, I didn't notice any major changes in SPA's diplomacy sliders before they left the Axis.)
It sounds like continuous war is my only option for keeping SPA in the Axis if the isolationsist shift is unavoidable. Problem there is that the Anschluss and CZE events won't fire if GER is at war. Right?
Anyway, thanks again for the info.
Tanaka, is the isolationist shift a foregone conclusion in every game? Is there a % chance of a shift or is it hard coded into the AI? (Incidently, I didn't notice any major changes in SPA's diplomacy sliders before they left the Axis.)
It sounds like continuous war is my only option for keeping SPA in the Axis if the isolationsist shift is unavoidable. Problem there is that the Anschluss and CZE events won't fire if GER is at war. Right?
Anyway, thanks again for the info.
It is a trigger in the AI files (SCW is one AI, after SCW win "another" AI is loaded I think).
To remove the "isolationist" move of SPA, you would have to MOD the SPA AI files & triggers if I'm not mistaken... and although I play an heavy modified game (by me for me
), I've not touched the SPA/SPR AI files since HOI2 early days, so clearly I’m not the one to give you good pointers for that.Right, they won't... but yet, with some MOD work, a small # in front of that condition can easily MOD out that necessity of all those events
Anyway, the SPA/SPR puppet route is in my view a much easier/funnier way to go about Iberian Peninsula... As GER what you want from SPA is:
All of them can come from an after Vichy puppet… Even if you annex, then puppet, it will cost you about 5 to 7 infantry divisions to defend SPA for 1 year before they can defend themselves… a cost GER can easily support specially if by puppeting we remove the 2 initial "costs" and later we can even remove all of them (defense of SPA)
- Victory points (very few but...),
- Rares (resources),
- Gibraltar (mostly a tactical advantage and a big help to ITA).
- Partisans,
- Low infrastructure,
- More places to defend from a landing to fortress Europe (AI will go "nuts" with landings in Seville and Huelva).
All of them can come from an after Vichy puppet… Even if you annex, then puppet, it will cost you about 5 to 7 infantry divisions to defend SPA for 1 year before they can defend themselves… a cost GER can easily support specially if by puppeting we remove the 2 initial "costs" and later we can even remove all of them (defense of SPA)
Btw, as you probably know, "the things are what they are" in game in relation to the hardness of doing (most) diplomatic deals with SPA after the SCW finish because of historic reasons...
As the Austrian corporal said one day; "I would prefer to have all my teeth removed than to deal with Franco again...” or something of the likes
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While there is a lot of propaganda and books, many writen by anglosaxons supposedly "expert" in Spain's history that tell a different story diverging from historical facts and common sense, the fact still remains that Spain would have never joint the axis, nor particiapted in WWII with Franco's regime in power. There is not much in english to read about the real history of what happened in Spain during the 30'ies, aside from the excellent books of Stanley Paine, but in Spanish there is an extense work by many authors that has long ago discredited the mantra of the; Bevors, Prestons, Gibsons and the like.
The popular front did want to join WWII and try very hard to do so, but in Munich Franco did proclaim that in case of a mayor european war Spain would remain neutral, and that was pretty much final. Of course by 1940, Hitler was master of Europe and Franco was very clever in neither commiting nor saying no to Hitler's advances in the matter, and that took a lot of nerve with the panzers in the frontier. It was a lot easier to do stiff upper lip stands behind the channel with naval and air supperiority, than to resist the guys in land when they were in the height of their power.
By 1939 USSR was allied (non agresion and trade pact, despite germany being already at war) with the National Socialists, so in case (god forbid) the popular front has won the Spanish Civil War in the game, thus becoming a soviet puppet state(like the popular front regions in spain was de facto after 1937), it makes sense that they would follow stalin's orders and get into the pact, probably being invaded after barbarrosa and participating to spain's sure dissaster, actively in WWII.
So I think the game is historical, at least in this matter.
BeSt
The popular front did want to join WWII and try very hard to do so, but in Munich Franco did proclaim that in case of a mayor european war Spain would remain neutral, and that was pretty much final. Of course by 1940, Hitler was master of Europe and Franco was very clever in neither commiting nor saying no to Hitler's advances in the matter, and that took a lot of nerve with the panzers in the frontier. It was a lot easier to do stiff upper lip stands behind the channel with naval and air supperiority, than to resist the guys in land when they were in the height of their power.
By 1939 USSR was allied (non agresion and trade pact, despite germany being already at war) with the National Socialists, so in case (god forbid) the popular front has won the Spanish Civil War in the game, thus becoming a soviet puppet state(like the popular front regions in spain was de facto after 1937), it makes sense that they would follow stalin's orders and get into the pact, probably being invaded after barbarrosa and participating to spain's sure dissaster, actively in WWII.
So I think the game is historical, at least in this matter.
BeSt
Hmm... Interesting, OT, but interesting nevertheless...
As I'm sure you suspect, history isn’t "owned" by anyone or any nation; like we always say “no one owns the truth”… Different people, with different educations/cultures, take different views from historical facts, and that is different
Just as a side note, but joking a bit; I suspect you are a Conde de Olivares “fan”; as you can see I much prefer Voltaire…
For quite a few reasons I don’t share many of your fundamental ideas expressed in the above topic but I do "follow you" when you type that Franco’s regime wouldn’t join the Axis … well at least while UK (and later the US) were in the equation (of-course, in an event of a full Nazi Europe, “all would dance to the Fascist tune”).
As I typed I don’t share many of your views about the specify matter of "the SCW"… As this is OT, I will just point out a small thing to you (where we strongly disagree) since and maybe above all this is an international forum.
As I typed I don’t share many of your views about the specify matter of "the SCW"… As this is OT, I will just point out a small thing to you (where we strongly disagree) since and maybe above all this is an international forum.
As I'm sure you suspect, history isn’t "owned" by anyone or any nation; like we always say “no one owns the truth”… Different people, with different educations/cultures, take different views from historical facts, and that is different
2 points to take notice:
- As you likely know, there were many “Anglo-Saxons” (I take it you are typing about English speakers; Americans, British, Irish, New Zealanders and so on) fighting in the SCW… So, you guessed, with all fairness they are entitled to their own interpretation of the facts (and it's not "good" or "bad").
- Many times, people with no interest/direct connection to the facts, have the less biased views of a historical fact...
Just as a side note, but joking a bit; I suspect you are a Conde de Olivares “fan”; as you can see I much prefer Voltaire…
Staying neutral is not a diplomatic triumph when no one wants to invade you.
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