German tank research over the top?

[Lumpy]

Aren't the tank research bonuses that are provided by the German focus tree a little bit... over the top? I don't want to start a discussion about the quality of German tanks in general (hint: they weren't all that good), since this is rather a game balance issue.

The focus trees are supposed to give the player meaningful choices. With the hefty tank research bonuses though, you literally have to actively avoid having 1941 tanks by 1939. You get free tank research, and then some. This is a huge balance issue in MP, and also takes away immersion in SP. Why should I bother producing Panzer IIIs if I can have Panzer IVs right away? Maybe a production bonus for one of the focuses would be more suiting? Thoughts on this?

 

[denisKhan]

I actually like the current system which benefits both Germany and Soviet Union: although it doesn't seem so, it is historical. Both Majors being the only countries at that time focusing hardly on armoured tactics, organisation, usage. Furthermore, many panzers were tested in the USSR and German Luftwaffe aces trained in the Soviet air force first.

 

[Lumpy]

Sure, the USSR and Germany definitely should get bonuses. I just think those bonuses are way too high. As I said, you don't even need to put considerably effort in having '41 tanks by '39, and this just seems odd. Keep in mind that the German tanks that were fielded during the invasion of France were inferior to all allied tanks across the board. The reasons for the quick German victory were new tactics and a flexible, highly autonomous leadership in the field (most breakthroughs were the result of officers actually acting against standing orders). Admittedly, this is hard to simulate in this game, but I think buffing the early blitzkrieg doctrine techs could simulate this fairly well. Giving Germany and the USSR a further edge in tank attack and speed would also help.

Handing out ludicrous tech bonuses, on the other hand, just feels a bit odd. There is no situation in which you actually should produce '39 tanks as Germany. The only efficient way to go under the current system is to go straight for '41 tanks as fast as possible. This, at least for me, is highly immersion breaking (the mainstray of German tanks during Barbarossa were Panzer IIIs). Also, it is a huge balance issue in MP. Beelining for tanks is apparently the most effective way to utilize the German focus tree. And there shouldn't be no-brainers in any of the trees.

 

[lihp]

I actually like the current system which benefits both Germany and Soviet Union: although it doesn't seem so, it is historical. Both Majors being the only countries at that time focusing hardly on armoured tactics, organisation, usage. Furthermore, many panzers were tested in the USSR and German Luftwaffe aces trained in the Soviet air force first.

Err nope its not historical. Tiger I time was in 42, in HOI4 you can make it much earlier. History-wise its totally overpowered.

 

[lihp]

It just feels off that there is no situation in which you actually produce '39 tanks as Germany. The only efficient way to go under the current system is to go straight for '41 tanks as fast as possible. This, at least for me, is highly immersion breaking (the mainstray of German tanks during Barbarossa were Panzer IIIs). Also, it is a huge balance issue in MP. Beelining for tanks is apparently the most effective way to utilize the German focus tree. And there shouldn't be no-brainers in any of the trees.

Barbarossa 41: mainly III's and earlier, sub-par to T34
Barborassa 42: first sightings of Tiger I with low reliability
Barbarossa 43: now we get into Tiger business...

Production of reliable Tiger I before 43 is unrealistic. In HOI4 you can kick off reliable Tigers in 40, I didnt test if I can do it earlier...

 

[denisKhan]

Thank you I already know these facts but remember that in Hoi4, tanks all have same values and their research year is incorrect: Tiger is considered 1941 technology whilst was available only in 1943 to production. Kv1 is also considered 1941 technology but was available in 1939. T-34s were already produced in 1940 and so were Panzer 4s.
I however agree that the research exploit should be corrected as it is a serious game-breaker in MP and SP.

EDIT: The bonuses are historical, not the use we make of them.

 

[bobre]

You forget that you don't produce Tigers nor Pz IVs in HoI, you produce MT level 2 or 3 etc.

Dates on research tree are just for ahead of time penalty, not for some historical accuracy markers.

PS. Every country has access to same tanks.

 

[demon72]

Tanks in HOI reflect the operational strength of an armoured division - and at this point DR was far ahead until 40/41 even if the tanks itselfs are best on par.

 

[C.N.]

Keep in mind that the German tanks that were fielded during the invasion of France were inferior to all allied tanks across the board.

Matilda II is not all allied tanks. The Cruisers were just on par with the German tanks.
The French tanks were all hampered by one-man turrets, except the AMC 35, which had reliability and availability issues.

 

[WarDog]

It's hard to reproduce the results Germany got early on. It had so much more to do with doctrines then equipment. And with a generic path, the early effect is even harder to reproduce.
The bonuses encourage someone playing Germany to go for panzers. It's not historically correct in every aspect, but INMO it's a good choice by the devs in order to give the Germans that early panzer edge and a good gameplay.

 

[Lumpy]

Tanks in HOI reflect the operational strength of an armoured division - and at this point DR was far ahead until 40/41 even if the tanks itselfs are best on par.

I'd say this is simulated by your doctrine. The brigades you research and fill your divisions with are quite clearly equipment, not some abstraction. Why should a German Tank be harder to penetrate and have a bigger gun just because their doctrine and tactics were superior? I'd say scrap one of the two armor research bonuses and replace it by something like a more breakthrough modifier. This way, Germany would still have an edge in tanks without being able to beeline the techtree prematurely.

Matilda II is not all allied tanks. The Cruisers were just on par with the German tanks.
The French tanks were all hampered by one-man turrets, except the AMC 35, which had reliability and availability issues.

I am by no means an expert, so please forgive my ignorance. My point remains valid, though. German tanks were by no means the superior technical marvels as which they are depicted in pop culture today. It weren't the tanks that were superior; the utilization of them by the German leadership was.

It's hard to reproduce the results Germany got early on. It had so much more to do with doctrines then equipment. And with a generic path, the early effect is even harder to reproduce.
The bonuses encourage someone playing Germany to go for panzers. It's not historically correct in every aspect, but INMO it's a good choice by the devs in order to give the Germans that early panzer edge and a good gameplay.

They absolutely should have an edge. The problem with the tech bonuses is that some productions are entirely skipped, which means Germany is able to mass produce tanks that are way ahead of their time in terms of stats. They don't have to shift production from MT '39 to MT '41 since they are able to produce MT '41 right away. Rather than being able to do that (and thus not only getting a bonus for tanks but also for the production meta), they should get modifiers for more breakthrough to simulate the better utilization of the same or even sub par equipment. Giving them an edge in tank research is also fine; the current tech bonuses are just way overboard.

 

[Opanashc]

Furthermore, many panzers were tested in the USSR and German Luftwaffe aces trained in the Soviet air force first.

Panzers back in 1920s? Nice alternate history you got there.

 

[cat013]

Not 1920s - Panzerschule Kama worked between 1929 and 1933 (closed because Hitler and stuff). Still, none of the "panzers" was tested there - they had like two early experimental chassis from Germany.

 

[Misaka_Complex]

The focus trees are supposed to give the player meaningful choices. With the hefty tank research bonuses though, you literally have to actively avoid having 1941 tanks by 1939. You get free tank research, and then some. This is a huge balance issue in MP, and also takes away immersion in SP. Why should I bother producing Panzer IIIs if I can have Panzer IVs right away? Maybe a production bonus for one of the focuses would be more suiting? Thoughts on this?

Because you will need Panzer III to push a human France and the Soviet Union while this is not needed and can be skipped in favour of the Pander IV in SP.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

Barbarossa 41: mainly III's and earlier, sub-par to T34
Barborassa 42: first sightings of Tiger I with low reliability
Barbarossa 43: now we get into Tiger business...

Production of reliable Tiger I before 43 is unrealistic. In HOI4 you can kick off reliable Tigers in 40, I didnt test if I can do it earlier...

The problem is that the models are whacked across the board. Bismarck and Type VIIs are 1940 technology, when they are not, they are 1936 technology. Or perhaps German design was just four years ahead, so that Germany gets these for free or at a substantial discount. The Stuka Kanonenvogel G is 1940, when it was fielded in late 42 or early 43. Someone really needs to do something akin to DIes Irae to correct this.

Another problem is that the Panzer IV was practically two different tanks, short barreled and long barreled. I am not sure to what degree this is adequately represented by variants, but I doubt it is fully replicated. A Panzer IV E was outclassed by the t34, whereas the panzer iv f2, G, H, J were a match, and in some respects may have had a slight edge in armament.

The German tech bonus is historical in that the Panzer IV was developed before 1940. It is ahistorical in the sense that it is a fullblown 1940 technology level tank, which I suppose is supposed to represent the t34 and long barreled panzer ivs, the latter of which were not fielded until about March 42.

 

[.badner]

The problem is that the models are whacked across the board. Bismarck and Type VIIs are 1940 technology, when they are not, they are 1936 technology. Or perhaps German design was just four years ahead, so that Germany gets these for free or at a substantial discount. The Stuka Kanonenvogel G is 1940, when it was fielded in late 42 or early 43. Someone really needs to do something akin to DIes Irae to correct this.
.

Regarding the technology levels, there will always be cases where it's hard to fit the model in the right year. Type VIIB were laied down '38 VIIc '40. But to fit in the most famous Uboot types we would need more techlevels. Then there's also problems that not all types of vehicles fit a certain in game role. Which is a bigger problem for tank or planes.

Another problem is that the Panzer IV was practically two different tanks, short barreled and long barreled. I am not sure to what degree this is adequately represented by variants, but I doubt it is fully replicated.

The biggest problems of the variant designer is that, there are exactly 4 variabls which can be changed. You can't design a medium tank level 2 with high soft, but low hard attack.
A Panzer 4 either has more soft AND hardattack or not.
It's also not possible to show the diffrence between the early wartanks with guns or automatic cannons. There should be more variabls to change for the player regarding the
respective class. Some vehicle types need more, some less variabels but not all 4 and exactly 4 variables

e.g. for Tanks with 6 variabls: Hardattack (maybe reducing softtack slightly with every point (like the Panthers had to high velocity guns against soft targets); Softattack (reducing hardattack); Armour; Speed; Reliability; Communications and Crewspace

e.g. for medium bombers with 6: Speed; Range; Softattack; Airdefense; Armour; Reliability.

e.g. for Destroyers with 8: Speed, Range, Attack, Torpedoattack; AA; ASW; Armour, Reliability.

e.g. for battleships with 7:Speed, Attack, AA, Armour, Reliabilty, Shootingrange and Targeting. (Did Range matter at all in this timeperiode for BBs?)

 

[bERt0r]

I agree with you. Germany should have a big advantage in land doctrines, not tank tech. Not being able to deal with the german Blitzkrieg doctrine was not a unique feature of the French leadership. It was not the quality or quantity of tanks that led to the early german victories. It was how they used them.

In HOI4 german can easily outproduce France and UK by 1939 and field an army twice their size. Especially when it comes to tanks.

 

[lihp]

You forget that you don't produce Tigers nor Pz IVs in HoI, you produce MT level 2 or 3 etc.

Dates on research tree are just for ahead of time penalty, not for some historical accuracy markers.

PS. Every country has access to same tanks.

This thread was about "ahead of time" boni in research for Germany. Esspecially several 50% reduced research bonusses as well as the 100% ahead of time reduction.

Used intelligently without exploiting you have Tiger I available in 39 for production. Due to serial mod baed one experience, you have even 100% reliable Tiger I in production by the end of 39 as Germany.

I easily can see how this is OP in MP games.

 

[lihp]

Tanks in HOI reflect the operational strength of an armoured division - and at this point DR was far ahead until 40/41 even if the tanks itselfs are best on par.

Errr nope. Up to '41, the SU was far ahead in tank and their operational strength (thicker armor, better penetration, higher reliability). Combined arms, using the tank mobility, focus relocation and communication gave Germans an edge, not the tanks as such.

 

[lihp]

I'd say this is simulated by your doctrine. The brigades you research and fill your divisions with are quite clearly equipment, not some abstraction. Why should a German Tank be harder to penetrate and have a bigger gun just because their doctrine and tactics were superior? I'd say scrap one of the two armor research bonuses and replace it by something like a more breakthrough modifier. This way, Germany would still have an edge in tanks without being able to beeline the techtree prematurely.

Sounds reasonable.

I am by no means an expert, so please forgive my ignorance. My point remains valid, though. German tanks were by no means the superior technical marvels as which they are depicted in pop culture today. It weren't the tanks that were superior; the utilization of them by the German leadership was.

You are totally right up until mid '42, maybe even end '42. Tiger tanks actually were a huge shock, more like an earthquake. Some facts to get an idea:

• Even in 44 we have reports of a single Tiger I tank being hit 247 (!!!!) times, while still being fully operational (including the crew).
• Tiger I doing one hit shots of 2+ km, easily popping a T34, KV-1,...
• Matilda (ok bad example), T34,.. hitting a Tiger I in the rear from 400m to no avail.
• 3vs1 (Steiner), result: 3 Red Army tanks down, the Tiger drives away unscathed.
• Even in '45 despite some claims, the Sherman was on a huge disadvantage being toe to toe with a Tiger I.
  
• ... you might enjoy a read on Otto Carius, Michael Wittmann or Johannes Boelter all Tiger I commanders (please only read the military part, the personal part is just... meh) - its almost superhuman what they achieved in a Tiger I on the battlefield.

Bottom line: That Tiger tank was historically a beast. So much that movement of armoured Tiger units were closely monitored by the Allies.

They absolutely should have an edge. The problem with the tech bonuses is that some productions are entirely skipped, which means Germany is able to mass produce tanks that are way ahead of their time in terms of stats. They don't have to shift production from MT '39 to MT '41 since they are able to produce MT '41 right away. Rather than being able to do that (and thus not only getting a bonus for tanks but also for the production meta), they should get modifiers for more breakthrough to simulate the better utilization of the same or even sub par equipment. Giving them an edge in tank research is also fine; the current tech bonuses are just way overboard.

Yep, way overboard. Its also game mechanics. Being able to improve the base model with experience and without research offers the option of highly reliable Tiger tanks right of production.