German-Soviet Front

[GuderianTA]

Hey guys,
I am concerned about the how the struggle between Germany and USSR will be modeled in HOI4. In hoi3, the eastern front was a great disappointment. The German AI would try to simply grind its way though soviet lines and end up using up all of its manpower and then be defeated in 1943. In other games, the Soviet front would crumble to German forces after a few weeks of fighting and never recover.

I am hoping the devs will put some love into the Ger-Rus war AI.

I would love to see the soviets trade their huge expanses of land for time. I would love to be able to as the Germans have to decide whether to encircle large number of divisions or make a B-line for resource rich territories. I would love to see the German and Soviet AI launch huge offensives in sectors, as opposed to simply grinding its way forward.

Most importantly, I would love to see the AI keep strategic reserves, retreat to natural barriers (rivers etc) and use defense in depth to protect the very vulnerable retreating forces.

Thank you

 

[hendriks]

Totally agree! HOI as a game has always had it difficult to balance out the eastern front, mostly it was either one side or the other in total victory within 2 years. Balancing the eastern front is extremely important in this game. There should be a set of AI's to load depending on the opponent. AI vs AI should be balanced with potential victories on both sides. This might be achieved by having the AI load certain battle plans pending it's opponent. I would be very disappointed, like what happened in the playoffs, when you can simply attack the USSR in January1941 and be in Moscow by summer without any problems.

The eastern front decided WW2. I believe HOI4 can be the best game ever, but without a balanced eastern front, people will walk away after playing 2-3 times, as most gamers play mayors, which depends on a not totally to the history timeline of the war in the east, but certainly a historical background where Russia did have a huge capacity to create simpler but effective enough armies. In HOI, mostly it's about IC or now factories, with those overrun, the USSR should not just simply die a slow death...

 

[MGL 86]

I was always wondering how Eastern front giant land battles are going to be simulated in Eastern Front.
How they simulate Operation Barbarossa? Give Germans boost so they can advance till Moscow?
How they simulate Soviet Winter Offensive? Give Russians boost so they can stop German onslaught etc...

 

[GundamMerc]

Meh, people really overestimate what the Russian army was. The Germans didn't come to a standstill because of any Russian resistance, it was a combination of launching their attack too late in the year (end of summer), not having winter equipment, and constant changes in High Command's focus for the campaign. The Russian army circa Operation Barbarossa was a joke. ESPECIALLY if you attack well before the starting date for Operation Barbarossa, as the Russian military would still be recovering from the officer purges.

 

[Mac Lazer]

Meh, people really overestimate what the Russian army was. The Germans didn't come to a standstill because of any Russian resistance, it was a combination of launching their attack too late in the year (end of summer), not having winter equipment, and constant changes in High Command's focus for the campaign. The Russian army circa Operation Barbarossa was a joke. ESPECIALLY if you attack well before the starting date for Operation Barbarossa, as the Russian military would still be recovering from the officer purges.

A major problem for the Germans was the supply lines. They were overstretched, and also the Polish resistance was doing a great job with disrupting them. I'm glad that this type of resistance and supply disruption will be modeled in this game.

(Btw, the Germans attacked at the beginning of summer, not the end.)

 

[zyphial]

Meh, people really overestimate what the Russian army was. The Germans didn't come to a standstill because of any Russian resistance, it was a combination of launching their attack too late in the year (end of summer), not having winter equipment, and constant changes in High Command's focus for the campaign. The Russian army circa Operation Barbarossa was a joke. ESPECIALLY if you attack well before the starting date for Operation Barbarossa, as the Russian military would still be recovering from the officer purges.

The soviet army circa Barbarossa was in a terrible state, but to say that it was a "joke" and that the Soviet resistance had nothing to do with Germany failing is historical revisionism at best and in and of itself more a "joke" than anything reflecting history.

 

[jcd000]

Red army may have been a joke, but it was huge. Enough to grind the Wehrmacht down till winter (and there were cases of the Red army outfighting the Wehrmach even then) and make them lose the window of opportunity for a quick victory.

Now for the HOI modelling, i think that the key things for HOI to model is (apart from doctrines, tactics, oob etc.)
(1) the manpower advantage of the red army.
(2) the supply problems Germany faced.

Even if the German army is superior and the same size as the Red army at Barbarossa, when the Germans are forced to fight on low supplies and as winter closes, they will start losing men.
Once this starts, their army experience will start to fall, thus leading to more casualties, until the German manpower is ground down and their army becomes a mess.

On the same time, the Soviets must be able to absorb their losses and their industry able to keep outproducing Germany, until they can gain momentum and experience to quantitatively and qualitatively overwhelm the Germans.

It should be possible if done right. Making it last enough time to be plausible, thats calibrating on the battle mechanics, the ai, and the specific resources of each country. Not enviable work.

 

[joe9594]

I am concerned about the how the struggle between Germany and USSR will be modeled in HOI4. In hoi3, the eastern front was a great disappointment. The German AI would try to simply grind its way though soviet lines and end up using up all of its manpower and then be defeated in 1943. In other games, the Soviet front would crumble to German forces after a few weeks of fighting and never recover.

I think these are kind of addressed by HOI4. Now divisions can be created much faster if you have stored equipment allowing the soviets to recover from a defeat. Also losing manpower now causes gradual problems wrt production and training before it causes the entire army to collapse.
I am a little concerned over the extremely low loses that you seem to suffer from fighting and the relative enormity of manpower pools but hopefully that will continue to be balanced.

 

[rjohansen]

I am hoping the devs will put some love into the Ger-Rus war AI.

I agree that the eastern front is the most important front and crucial to the game. That was THE front of the war. I hope Paradox puts lots of love into it.

On the other hand, I didnt feel it was too bad in HOI3:

• If playing Germany: Depending on how you play the game. If using AI control (and too few Army Groups) and only "attacking stance" it works as you described. But if you use more than 3 (North, South, Central) Army Groups, you could come away with good results using AI. Of course controlling the units yourself is easier. Soviet AI also puts up a decent fight, mostly.
• If playing Soviet: German AI on the other hand... That was the only bad thing about that front in HOI3. Way too easy to win as Soviet.
• If AI vs AI - it would work out ok too in my opinion.

 

[rjohansen]

Also, the Soviet losses were massive. Without lend-lease from USA, would Soviet be able to fight back the Germans? I personally doubt it. Lend-lease was massive, especially to UK and Soviet and that should have an important impact. They received massive amounts of planes and other military equipment, but most importantly, they received locomotives and transport vehicles.

Without lend-lease, Soviet wouldn't stand a chance in my opinion.

 

[Opanashc]

Also, the Soviet losses were massive. Without lend-lease from USA, would Soviet be able to fight back the Germans? I personally doubt it. Lend-lease was massive, especially to UK and Soviet and that should have an important impact. They received massive amounts of planes and other military equipment, but most importantly, they received locomotives and transport vehicles.
Without lend-lease, Soviet wouldn't stand a chance in my opinion.

Red Army started pushing the Wehrmacht back BEFORE any meaningful amount of LL reached the front-line. That's proven. The SPEED of Soviet advance is the variable for LL.

 

[MarcoRossolini]

Meh, people really overestimate what the Russian army was. The Germans didn't come to a standstill because of any Russian resistance, it was a combination of launching their attack too late in the year (end of summer), not having winter equipment, and constant changes in High Command's focus for the campaign. The Russian army circa Operation Barbarossa was a joke. ESPECIALLY if you attack well before the starting date for Operation Barbarossa, as the Russian military would still be recovering from the officer purges.

Ever heard of Brest?

 

[Modestus]

Meh, people really overestimate what the Russian army was. The Germans didn't come to a standstill because of any Russian resistance, it was a combination of launching their attack too late in the year (end of summer), not having winter equipment, and constant changes in High Command's focus for the campaign. The Russian army circa Operation Barbarossa was a joke. ESPECIALLY if you attack well before the starting date for Operation Barbarossa, as the Russian military would still be recovering from the officer purges.

I think its about time you moved on from the Lady Bird book of WW II.

 

[Mannstien]

Would be kewl to see them play as Italy or something at the 39' start date and fast forward to Barbarossa so we can see how things go especially as they keep improving the Historical selection for the game start.

 

[Nicolas I]

...Most importantly, I would love to see the AI keep strategic reserves, retreat to natural barriers (rivers etc) and use defense in depth to protect the very vulnerable retreating forces....

I have a dream that one day...this AI will rise up and reach the expectations of Paradoxians!

I have a dream today!

AI at last! AI at last!

Thank God Almighty, we have clever AI at last!

 

[ComradeCommissar]

Meh, people really overestimate what the Russian army was. The Germans didn't come to a standstill because of any Russian resistance, it was a combination of launching their attack too late in the year (end of summer), not having winter equipment, and constant changes in High Command's focus for the campaign. The Russian army circa Operation Barbarossa was a joke. ESPECIALLY if you attack well before the starting date for Operation Barbarossa, as the Russian military would still be recovering from the officer purges.

...and all of this is could not be farther from the truth. The Germans did indeed come to a standstill because of Russian (Soviet) resistance.. That was the entire battle of Moscow, Leningrad, Rostov, etc.. They overextended in the face of determined Soviet resistance and snapped because of their own incompetence, constantly underestimating the true will of the Soviet people to defend. Kicking in the door did not bring the whole structure crashing down. Ultimately though, they started a war that Germany could not win.

The Russian army was in such disarray because it tends to hurt when you have contradicting orders and no high command to coherently execute battle plans. For example, Kirponos (southern/southwestern front commander, can't remember) was told to be in Lublin by the evening of June 24th while he himself prepared a defensive plan and was denied it, instead executing the Brody battles. Then Stalin left to his Dacha like a bitch. Actually, what people may not know is that the Red Army came close to discounting Barbarossa entirely at Yelnya. If it was more damaging then it actually was (or there were more reserves available) then the counterstrokes against the Kiev encirclement could've enveloped and destroyed a German motorized division on the defensive (as it would've pulled away resources sent to reinforce this division to the Yelnya bulge) and sent a soviet army into the rear of the drive across the desna. If you want exact information ask ObsessedNuker, this is his info.

People always say that Germany should've launch Barbarossa earlier. Well, that means running straight into mud, rainy weather, and the German advance would be bogged down. The Germans HAD to wait until June 22nd to make sure the rains were gone. What will they do without the full ability to exploit their breaches, while the Stavka has time to mobilize the army and deal with the chaos in the army?

What do you mean changes in focus? Because if you mean diverting to Kiev, that was the most strategically sound move that the Wehrmacht could've made. They eliminated the Southwestern Front and pushed into the industrial areas of Orel-Kharkov and the Donbass,

 

[MGL 86]

Kiev encirclement is biggest encirclement in history of warfare. There is no other example like losing more than a half million soldiers in a month. I think this is a very good decision from Hitler or stupid decision from Stalin.

 

[MGL 86]

I still wonder why there are still so much wrong knowledge against Soviets in WW2 like:
1. Human wave attack
2. 1 rifle for 2 soldiers
3. Mass shooting the cowards
4. Lend Lease saving Soviet Union in 1941
5. My favorite: Eastern front was secondary theater until US came and defeat Nazis.

EDIT:
6. Operation Barbarossa was pre-emptive strike that reached Moscow.
7. Siberian Divisions
8. Germans should have attacked in May
9. Russians are immune to winter and mud.

 

[Lither]

I blame the Cold War that immediately followed
Also Goebbels

 

[Khelder]

1. Human wave attack which doesn´t mean just a wave of humans was one of the favourite tactics used by soviet union in the second world war. The idea of overwhelming the enemy with seemingly endless amounts of soldiers played a role in most of the soviet victories during the war. I don´t mean that the soviets wouldn´t have made battleplans and even utilized breakthroughs and other tactics, but in the end of the day soviets were quite fond to spending manpower to win just sending in overwhelming numbers.
2. This is funny thing that people think that way as soviet union didn´t just have 1 rifle per 1 soldier, but even had huge amounts of artillery,tanks, plains, etc.
Which could be seen after Winter War when Finns armed their army with all that equipment that soviets had left behind and even formed armored division( in a finnish meaning couple of hundred tanks + infantry) using soviet tanks. It is even said that when foreign reporters came to check finnish army after winter war that they were amased with the amount of armament that finns had and asked who had supplied all those weapons and the answer was Soviet Union.
3. I don´t say that there were mass shootings but still there were soldiers being shot for running from battle. That happened i
4. Soviet Union would have been in serious problems supplying its attacks, if they wouldn´t have gotten all those trucks,trains,etc from LL. Soviet Union had no problems producing weapons,tanks, etc but had big problems or atleast shortages in the transporting side which was solved by LL as tehay got over 400K trucks, over 2k trains and lots of other vehicles.

5. Ofcourse everyone knows that if there wouldn´t have been eastern front western allies would have been in quite hopeless position to launch invasions to europe and western front was even supposed to just relieve pressure from east.