German release: Will HOI 4 be released in Germany?

[Wulf145]

I don't have an experience with regards of Steam and regional laws. But I am pretty sure if you bought international version it's NOT replaced with regional one. I once had 2 different versions of the same game on my account (region locked and international)

It depends on how stringent Steam enforces the Region Lock this does vary from Game to Game, if I remember correctly Steam enforced the Region Lock for The Witcher in the US because of nudity in the International version (I don't have the Time to research it at the moment to provide Links but I remember that it was implemented at least in the beginning).

 

[psstt]

I find this thread highly ironic, considering that two weeks ago, Germany was eager to stand side by side with France in defense of free speech.

 

[Wulf145]

I find this thread highly ironic, considering that two weeks ago, Germany was eager to stand side by side with France in defense of free speech.

If you look at who the German Government is supporting in the Ukraine the irony really blows your mind.

 

[Silas60]

I find this thread highly ironic, considering that two weeks ago, Germany was eager to stand side by side with France in defense of free speech.

This issue has nothing to do with the freedom of speech.

I think we will have to wait how the USK decides when Paradox sends a copy there.

 

[Voigt]

I don't have an experience with regards of Steam and regional laws. But I am pretty sure if you bought international version it's NOT replaced with regional one. I once had 2 different versions of the same game on my account (region locked and international)

As I know steam can't change the gameversion you bought, so if you bought the uncut version you have the uncut version in your libary.
What they can do is, preventing you to start the uncut version with a german ip. So you can't play the game you have bought.

 

[Overlord123]

As I know steam can't change the gameversion you bought, so if you bought the uncut version you have the uncut version in your libary.
What they can do is, preventing you to start the uncut version with a german ip. So you can't play the game you have bought.

The publisher can even prevent you from activating non-German versions on steam, see Sleeping Dogs Definitive Edition which can't be played in Germany on PC at all.

Funny thing though, there are games on Steam that have swastikas in them that can be bought in Germany, they even show them in shots on the store page.
Prominent example: "The Campaign Series: Fall Weiss" Look it up on steam.

 

[No idea]

I don't think that the German Authorities are the problem here, I have the suspicion that it is Steam which is the problem, since I have had no problems buying the English version of HOI2 & 3 from Gamersgate. I am worried that Steam will 'replace' the bought version with the German Version if the Steam Account is a German one.

This is my guess also.

 

[Holy.Death]

Very simply, unless you use a VPN or something, Steam will identify you as a German, and "act accordingly" (meaning regardless of what you bought, you are likely to get the German approved version). That is, if Steam decides that they want to "be difficult".

[...]

All that said, hopefully Steam wont do any "enforcements", so that the people who wants to can get the "normal" English version should they so choose.

I am not so certain. German players who wanted to play Red Orchestra 2 or Left 4 Dead series with gore enabled had to have their copies gifted by non-German Steam users to be able to use English version of said games. Same might be in store for Hearts of Iron 4.

IIRC there could have been a Chinese version but it was banned because the PRC was (rightfully) portrayed as puny at game start.

It was banned for different reasons: click.

 

[PlacidDragon]

I am not so certain. German players who wanted to play Red Orchestra 2 or Left 4 Dead series with gore enabled had to have their copies gifted by non-German Steam users to be able to use English version of said games. Same might be in store for Hearts of Iron 4

That is why i said it depends on if Steam wants to be difficult (it probably has little or nothing to do with Paradox as developer/publisher per see)

If Steam geo-locks the game, and you have a German IP, then just forget about playing without Mr Hilter or whatever it is they call him in the German version

Which leaves you with the option of activating it and playing it using a VPN/Proxy, but that is a bannable offense in the Steam TOS, and you run the very real risk of losing your entire Steam account.

So i'll just restate, it depends on if Steam wants to be difficult

 

[Skylax]

Do you have contracted German lawyers with this matter or do you follow the same path many international publishers go to let the legal decision rest with people equipped with rather outside knowledge of German law?

I would like to outline some things from a legal perspective:

There has been exactly 1 court decision in Germany regarding the usage of anticonstitutional symbolism (Verwendung von verfassungsfeindlichen Symbolen) in computer games. The decision is now 21 years old and was concerned with the game "Wolfenstein 3D". While it is true that the usage of those symbols poses a criminal offense (§§86, 86a StGB [criminal code]), "Wolfenstein 3D" was not initially indexed. The game was published in 1992 and in 1994 it was confiscated by a German court based in Munich, making the destribution and the disposal of the game illegal, but not the ownership itself. In the ensuing trial, the decision was upheld and justified by the display of swastika flags and for the Horst-Wessel-Lied being the main title music. Whether the game was a piece of art (and therefore legally displaying the symbolism) was not under consideration in the justification of the court. Besides, back in 1994, computer games were a niche product, since they are nowadays pushing into the culture canon, there is a decent chance that computer games in some cases can be regarded as art rather than toys or whatever.
After the court's decision, the game was put on the index by a predecessor of the USK (German PEGI), but not for it's display of anticonstitutional symbolism, but rather for it's exessive depiction of violence.



Leaving out the swastika flag and any nationalsocialist propaganda music, but including images depicting Hitler/Goebbels/Göring etc, just make sure, none of them has a Reichsadler oder swastika on them. This would fulfill all the requirements of the 1 (!) previous court decision regarding the usage of anticonstitutional symbols in video games. The question is, whether the idea of protection provided by the §§86, 86a is in some way affected. The norm was implemented into the criminal code in order to prevent any propaganda from/for organisations that have been ruled to be anticonstitutional (the former communist party too, by the way). From a professional standpoint, I see the dilemma of Paradox's lawyers. The game basically enables the player to subdue and conquer the entire world under a German ruler named Adolf Hitler and his gang, including their images. This is borderline propaganda and glorification. There will be people sueing the publisher of the game for that.
Now, I am pretty positive about PD's chances to win such a trial (I am a lawyer in case anybody wonders, credentials upon request), but it would cost money and bring along some ugly PR and media coverage, not necessarily the worst scenerio from a pure commercial standpoint, but probably attracting the wrong people to play the game. I am sure, that Paradox Interactive wants to avoid a trial in Germany, so they will have to wait for the game to be in it's final version and let the lawyers decide what should not be included. I would advise them to at least change Hitler's name and leave his picture out. Then the designers of the game will have to make a decision about how to alter the game to comply with German law. All that during crunch time is a pain in the ass, I am sure, this is probably why they don't promise to bring out the German version at the same time as the "international version".

 

[Wulf145]

I am not so certain. German players who wanted to play Red Orchestra 2 or Left 4 Dead series with gore enabled had to have their copies gifted by non-German Steam users to be able to use English version of said games. Same might be in store for Hearts of Iron 4.

I hope it will not come to that since I am sure that such a move will not exactly boost boost sales in the German market.

 

[Overlord123]

That is why i said it depends on if Steam wants to be difficult (it probably has little or nothing to do with Paradox as developer/publisher per see)

Actually it is the publisher who defines whether a game is locked or not and not Steam/Valve.

 

[Wulf145]

Actually it is the publisher who defines whether a game is locked or not and not Steam/Valve.

then all we can hope for is that PDS will decide not to region-lock HOI4.

 

[unmerged(317958)]

ironic that they say we faught world war 2 to preserve "free speech" yet here we are, 2015, Europe banning everything from imagary to words.

I laughed at "hinkel" instead of hitler though hehehe

 

[PlacidDragon]

Actually it is the publisher who defines whether a game is locked or not and not Steam/Valve.

I know that was the case with Wolfenstein (Bethesda deciding to lock it), but im sure that Steam can do it on their own initiative when there is a specifically tailored German version of the game.

Edit : I can also add that Steam geo-locked Russia on their own initiative last month when the Rubel crashed, basically to stop people in other parts of the world from getting cheap games.

 

[Wulf145]

I know that was the case with Wolfenstein (Bethesda deciding to lock it), but im sure that Steam can do it on their own initiative when there is a specifically tailored German version of the game.

Edit : I can also add that Steam geo-locked Russia on their own initiative last month when the Rubel crashed, basically to stop people in other parts of the world from getting cheap games.

But in this case allowing a User in Germany to play a game in their language of choice wouldn't hurt their bottom line, since I doubt that they will make the English version cheaper.

 

[PlacidDragon]

But in this case allowing a User in Germany to play a game in their language of choice wouldn't hurt their bottom line, since I doubt that they will make the English version cheaper.

Oh, i agree with you completely. I find the law very silly (and far more counterproductive than anything else). But it is still the law, and while we consumers can try to wiggle our way around any "obstacles", companies like Paradox have to follow it

I also doubt very highly that Paradox as a publisher would ask for a geo lock (which is why i didn't mention that in my earlier posts), since they have always been relatively laid back (not even copy protecting their games). So unless Paradox publishing has recently hired a new "fire and brimstone by-the-books nazi" (pardon the pun, i just had to) to handle their distribution, i just cannot see that happening. Which only leaves Steam.

But we'll get more information closer to release, im sure

 

[Phi]

While I technically do not agree with the German laws, which ban the glorification of nationalsocialism, please do not pretend as if it would mean the end of free speech. It is nothing more than a small stain on the concept, which only effects (neo-)Nazis and WW2 gamers. In fact the forerunners of current laws were introduced by the allies. While I would not include any law like this in a democratic constituion, there are so many other things that are more important for a liberal democracy.

As Skylax said, the chances for a court victory might be good for Paradox and I would like to buy the uncensored version of the game from Germany, but I see why Paradox does not want to go to court and claiming that these German laws are undermining free speech is just hyperbole.

 

[Overlord123]

Oh, i agree with you completely. I find the law very silly (and far more counterproductive than anything else). But it is still the law, and while we consumers can try to wiggle our way around any "obstacles", companies like Paradox have to follow it

I also doubt very highly that Paradox as a publisher would ask for a geo lock (which is why i didn't mention that in my earlier posts), since they have always been relatively laid back (not even copy protecting their games). So unless Paradox publishing has recently hired a new "fire and brimstone by-the-books nazi" (pardon the pun, i just had to) to handle their distribution, i just cannot see that happening. Which only leaves Steam.

But we'll get more information closer to release, im sure

Steam doesn't give a hoot about German laws, they sell all the 18+ games (basically all games without USK rating, which includes most Indie games)
without appropriate age checking which is a criminal offense in Germany and they sell games with swastikas also a criminal offense.
It is only the responsibility of the publisher to prevent this, Valve does absolutely nothing.
The only time Valve does something is when they stand to lose money like with the Russian steam store, but then they do it for the whole region and not single games.

 

[Avartex]

Hi, my name is Jakob Munthe, and I am the brand manager for Hearts of Iron IV.
Having read through this thread I would like to give a quick rundown on the situation. As people correctly has mentioned, a lot of the material in HoI IV breaks German law, especially those regarding the sales of toys (in which all games are counted).
Paradox fully respects the German laws and will try to act accordingly. We are currently working with lawyers and ensure a product for the German market that will be in accordance with German law. Regrettably, this version of the game will most likely not be ready for release, but hopefully rather shortly afterwards.
Regarding buying the product from Germany from a non-German site, we try to work according to the request of our partners, where most want us to respect German national laws regardless of the location of the service, which we intend to respect.

Thanks for your answer, Jakob. At least PI gives some information.


But some new uncertainties occured and it would be great, if you or s.o. else could answer this:


1. German release delayed

Regrettably, this version of the game will most likely not be ready for release, but hopefully rather shortly afterwards.

So, already now, the devs could calculate that a delay for German release is necessary.

a) Why is it delayed? Are there not enough translators?

b) What about preorder form Germany? Will it be possible to preorder from Germany?
If we preorder an English version, wouldn't it be possible to play it? How about refunding then?
Will it be changed into a German version after release?


At last:

Why shall German players preorder HoI 4, if there are so many uncertainties?
When we'll get to know, what the plans are for Germany?


2. Problems around Steam

All these discussions seem more related to Steam than only to German law. Aren't there plans to release a version without boundings to Steam? Maybe a Paradox system?
How will you prevent a region lock.

I'm, ok with it, that symbols are changed. But I'm not willing to pay fullprice for a game, where I get a region lock and can't choose what language I wanna play with (especially because of all these translation problems PI had in the past; localization isn't a strength of PI ).

Will PI restrict buying HOI 4 via resellers and possibly deleting games on Steam or denying access (happened a few days ago with Far Cry 4).

If yes, where's the player friendly publisher hiding because of whom we once bought games?

Aren't there any plans to establish an own PI distribution system? Coulnd't PI sell a Steam and another version?


3. (German) HoI 4 - An opportunity for some new design additions/ideas


Aren't there any discussions to add a DLC or design a part of the game, where the player will be informed about crimes committed during WW II (e.g. the event system in HoI 2 was better to get some historical information than HoI 3)?

E.g. you could add a documentary or design a documentary in game graphics to enlighten players, that regimes like in Germany mustn't never appear on this earth again.
With this addition depicting Hitler to "Hynkel" isn't necessary anymore, because your game gets an teaching element, maybe you get at last even a "Prädikat besonders wertvoll", where the ministry of education itself promotes your game :blink:


4. Compensation for German players


If you already plan a delay for Germany, if there will be a region lock or "nice treatments" due to PIs cooperation with Steam, depicting or deleting German politicians:

What compensations are planned by PI for German players?

A DLC (not only some graphic stuff)?

Or some discount?