German Naval Tech Tree problem

[Stevenside]

Hey everyone, i wasnt sure if this was asked but are those tree final? Seems very odd to have to research the Scharnhorst in 1936 when it was laid down in '35 and launched in 36.

Bismarck class is 1941 for some reason. With the research times and build time, there is absolutely no point in trying to go naval since it takes you a long time to research the ships, and then start building them. The Bismarck was laid down in '36 and finished in 40-41. Why are the research times this messed up?

You wont get to try build a single endgame battleship before the game ends at this rate

Bonus question: Why doesnt harbours have industrial efficiency?

 

[GsusNSV]

Research time is not that much. The 'Print Eugen' (Level 3 ('40) German Heavy cruiser) takes 154 days to research. Not even half a year.
The Level 1 carrier needs 116 days.

In WWW4 at 18:14 you can see that 15 dockyards (with all materials) can spit out 1.46 level 2 BB (Scharnhost) per year. In the same picture it is shown, that only 2 dockyards will need almost 6 years for a level 2 BB.
It is a question of how much dockyards you are willing to assign. But easily possible to have a '44 BB ready in '45.

Bonus: I think dockyards can't really work a Ford like Assembly line. Therefore the efficency gain from building the same ship class are negligible.
I know the USA did something like this for the Liberty ships, but was it done for something bigger than a DD?
Also you are not building that many capital ships in a row. (Okay once again the USA with the Essex-class carrier)

 

[mdw1985]

Research time is not that much. The 'Print Eugen' (Level 3 ('40) German Heavy cruiser) takes 154 days to research. Not even half a year.
The Level 1 carrier needs 116 days.

In WWW4 at 18:14 you can see that 15 dockyards (with all materials) can spit out 1.46 level 2 BB (Scharnhost) per year. In the same picture it is shown, that only 2 dockyards will need almost 6 years for a level 2 BB.
It is a question of how much dockyards you are willing to assign. But easily possible to have a '44 BB ready in '45.

Bonus: I think dockyards can't really work a Ford like Assembly line. Therefore the efficency gain from building the same ship class are negligible.
I know the USA did something like this for the Liberty ships, but was it done for something bigger than a DD?
Also you are not building that many capital ships in a row. (Okay once again the USA with the Essex-class carrier)

I never saw an efficiency bar in the game for ships...maybe it's not in...

 

[hkrommel]

I know the USA did something like this for the Liberty ships, but was it done for something bigger than a DD?
Also you are not building that many capital ships in a row. (Okay once again the USA with the Essex-class carrier)

Lol. US industry, the exception to all the rules

 

[Axe99]

Hey everyone, i wasnt sure if this was asked but are those tree final? Seems very odd to have to research the Scharnhorst in 1936 when it was laid down in '35 and launched in 36.

Bismarck class is 1941 for some reason. With the research times and build time, there is absolutely no point in trying to go naval since it takes you a long time to research the ships, and then start building them. The Bismarck was laid down in '36 and finished in 40-41. Why are the research times this messed up?

You wont get to try build a single endgame battleship before the game ends at this rate

Bonus question: Why doesnt harbours have industrial efficiency?

With the tech trees, they have to put the best names they have in the slots they have. They have (iirc) a 1922, 1936, 1940 and 1944 slot. In that context, where does the Scharnhorst go? 1922 is far too early, particularly as Germany starts with two (much) older battleships. Same for the 1940 slot - you could make it the Bismarck, or make it the H-Class, but leaving the Bismarck (or the Scharnhorst) out of the Germany tech tree doesn't make a whole lot of sense - so having Bismarck in 1940 is the best available fit. It's the same with all the other tech trees - the trees need to be ordered or it's painful for the player to use, but navies didn't build new ships to a tempo that suited the development of a videogame seventy or so years in the future, so there'll always have to be some compromise. By all means make a suggestion for how better to fit the names into those four slots, but that's what we've got to work with.

As G-sus has noted, the speed with which BBs can be built is pretty ridiculous as well - if you turn your mind to it, you can have one out in around nine months of it being researched - so with only a slight tech penalty you could have a Bismarck class operational by mid-1941 as well.

Edit: On the second point, there's not a huge amount of evidence for industrial efficiency with larger ships. I can get some numbers out if anyone wants them.

 

[Sun_Killer]

These names are only a nice touch to the generic BB2 every country can build them and they have they same stats. This is only for imersion and not game balance. So i don´t really care if the Bismark is a 1940 ship or not.

 

[teamgene]

Research time is not that much. The 'Print Eugen' (Level 3 ('40) German Heavy cruiser) takes 154 days to research. Not even half a year.
The Level 1 carrier needs 116 days.

In WWW4 at 18:14 you can see that 15 dockyards (with all materials) can spit out 1.46 level 2 BB (Scharnhost) per year. In the same picture it is shown, that only 2 dockyards will need almost 6 years for a level 2 BB.
It is a question of how much dockyards you are willing to assign. But easily possible to have a '44 BB ready in '45.

Bonus: I think dockyards can't really work a Ford like Assembly line. Therefore the efficency gain from building the same ship class are negligible.
I know the USA did something like this for the Liberty ships, but was it done for something bigger than a DD?
Also you are not building that many capital ships in a row. (Okay once again the USA with the Essex-class carrier)

The dockyard cannot work like a Ford Assembly line, but around 1943 the Germans did start building uboat parts in inland workshops and then assembled at the dockyard speeding up the build time on uboats.

 

[hkrommel]

The dockyard cannot work like a Ford Assembly line, but around 1943 the Germans did start building uboat parts in inland workshops and then assembled at the dockyard speeding up the build time on uboats.

The problem is they contracted that out to companies that were inexperienced building U-boats, and so they leaked pretty badly IIRC

 

[LordOfWar16]

Hey everyone, i wasnt sure if this was asked but are those tree final? Seems very odd to have to research the Scharnhorst in 1936 when it was laid down in '35 and launched in 36.

Bismarck class is 1941 for some reason. With the research times and build time, there is absolutely no point in trying to go naval since it takes you a long time to research the ships, and then start building them. The Bismarck was laid down in '36 and finished in 40-41. Why are the research times this messed up?

You wont get to try build a single endgame battleship before the game ends at this rate

Bonus question: Why doesnt harbours have industrial efficiency?

Research really doesnt take that long, especially if you activate plan Z, which grands you research reductions for certain ships. The ships are not final in their distribution, however, podcat said that in another thread and said that they might have messed up a bit. Throwing enough dockyards and resources of course at the production will let you built more than 1 bb a year per production line. If you have sufficient dockyards you could of course add multiple lines of the same ship.

There is no production gearing efficiency, because ships arent built in an assembly line style like tanks or planes.

 

[Sun_Killer]

i saw a post here some where which suggested a limt of about 5 docks for ships over cl size so that the first one wouldn´t came out in 0.7 year but in 2 years which makes the thing much more realistic then, say I really need an bb.But 15 docks to the job, build the BB in 8 months than i can switch do something else and i only had my docks blocked for about 8 months. sure if you say it in dockyard days overall it will be the same but it would still make more sense to build it over lets say 15-18 months. You also need to think ahead if you really need them.

 

[jackalope81]

Research time is not that much. The 'Print Eugen' (Level 3 ('40) German Heavy cruiser) takes 154 days to research. Not even half a year.
The Level 1 carrier needs 116 days.

In WWW4 at 18:14 you can see that 15 dockyards (with all materials) can spit out 1.46 level 2 BB (Scharnhost) per year. In the same picture it is shown, that only 2 dockyards will need almost 6 years for a level 2 BB.
It is a question of how much dockyards you are willing to assign. But easily possible to have a '44 BB ready in '45.

Bonus: I think dockyards can't really work a Ford like Assembly line. Therefore the efficency gain from building the same ship class are negligible.
I know the USA did something like this for the Liberty ships, but was it done for something bigger than a DD?
Also you are not building that many capital ships in a row. (Okay once again the USA with the Essex-class carrier)

Kaiser shipbuilding who were the ones who got Liberty ship production down to 90 days built 50 stopgap Casablanca carriers in two years.

You don't do assembly line but if you have multiple slips in the yard you have teams trained in a single step like laying the keel do their work then go the next slip and do the same. Basically the same as tract houses. Plumbing lines then foundation, the framing, then roof, and so on. Since Kaiser had twelve slips and could do a liberty in 90 days It would spit a new one out on average every week.

 

[hkrommel]

You don't do assembly line but if you have multiple slips in the yard you have teams trained in a single step like laying the keel do their work then go the next slip and do the same. Basically the same as tract houses. Plumbing lines then foundation, the framing, then roof, and so on. Since Kaiser had twelve slips and could do a liberty in 90 days It would spit a new one out on average every week.

Basically instead of moving the thing being built down the line, you move the people building it, yes? Kind of an "assembler" line?

 

[jackalope81]

Basically instead of moving the thing being built down the line, you move the people building it, yes? Kind of an "assembler" line?

Yes, they can also prefabricate certain sections on land based shops and then bring them in and put them in place. The idea is to break the total construction down to as few and simple steps as possible that can be trained into people where all they have to do is repeat. The "line" is helpful because folks can stay in one place and you can feed them parts and they can go really fast. It all starts with a design that is simple and reduces the number of steps and the variety of parts and actions. Things like deciding all the rivets or screws are x size sound small but add up.