"German Military Incompetence Through Italian Eyes" James J. Sadkovich

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
M

Mr. Wiggles

Guest

I found this small free sage online. It focuses on german-italian relations during ww2 from the italian point of view. I think it can be quite interesting since it hints to possible (and believable) future italian alternate history focus trees.

Link to the free document, courtesy by Bki:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • 6Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Zauberelefant

woke commie
18 Badges
Oct 26, 2011
1.792
1.624
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War

I found this small free sage online. It focuses on german-italian relations during ww2 from the italian point of view. I think it can be quite interesting since it hints to possible (and believable) future italian alternate history focus trees.
Italan Dunning-Kruger-effect ;)
 
  • 7Haha
  • 3
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Bki

Captain
69 Badges
Jul 31, 2012
498
476
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Sengoku
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
Not much that I didn't already knew, but the article is interesting nevertheless. I will have to search for more views on Ribbentrop, because from the Italian perspectives at least he sounds like quite the buffoon.

Basically the points are that Germany started the war despite repeated warnings that Italy would only be ready by 42, refused to sell them weapon and machinery, and overall hampered in many ways the operation in Egypt. Meanwhile the German felt extremely timid and loss averse when it comes to the invasion of England (which was delayed due to "bad weather" then shelved) and operations in the Mediterranean. The failure to deal with England also prevented Spain from joining the Axis and kept Gibraltar secure for the Allied.

And then, of course, they declared war on the USSR, of which nothing more need to be said. And when that predictably failed, asked for help from their allies. Interestingly, the Italian were rather happy to see Germany struggling, at least until they realized they would be dragged down with them too.

The author conclude with a note that the mutual distrust and failure to cooperate and coordinate their effort is probably more important to their defeat that any individual incompetence.

Some choice quotes :

Even the Japanese military attaché had publicly lamented German ineptitude, and Ciano observed that the courteous welcome accorded the Italians at Klessheim castle indicated that things must be very bad in Russia because, ’The courtesy of the Germans is always in inverse ratio to their good fortune’.

Massive losses at Stalingrad created fear of defeat and a general loathing of Italy among the German public, which increasingly blamed the Italians for German failures, perhaps to rationalize leaving Italian forces stranded in Russia and Afrrica. In fact, the collapse of the Italian 8th Army was in part due to German pressure to deploy Messe’s forces in a continuous line on the banks of the Don rather than in mutually supporting strong points along the heights as the Italian command wanted. That the Germans then fled in Italian vehicles made their arrogance as painfully clear as their incompetence.

The irony, of course, was that the Germans did not trust the Italians either, but they were in a position to monopolize Europe’s economic resources, and the consequences of their mistakes and prejudices were more profound than the results of Italian errors and mistrust.

Italan Dunning-Kruger-effect ;)

Not really, you don't need to be particularly competent to realize that others are also not so.
 
Last edited:
  • 10
  • 5
  • 3Like
Reactions:

Kryndude

Lt. General
60 Badges
Mar 3, 2015
1.580
1.456
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
Interesting stuff. I had the impression that Germans were the real deal and all the other Axis countries were not much of a help to Germany, but I must've been seriously wrong. Well, I mean I knew that Hitler threw hard by attacking the USSR, but I thought the German army itself was top notch.

Btw, do I have to pay to access the article?
 

Bki

Captain
69 Badges
Jul 31, 2012
498
476
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Sengoku
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
Interesting stuff. I had the impression that Germans were the real deal and all the other Axis countries were not much of a help to Germany, but I must've been seriously wrong. Well, I mean I knew that Hitler threw hard by attacking the USSR, but I thought the German army itself was top notch.

Btw, do I have to pay to access the article?

The focus of the article is more on the upper echelon, as the sources tend to be diplomats, military attaché and the like.

That said the German generals are probably the most overrated in WW2 due to much of popular history being shaped by the self-serving memoirs (with Hitler being the source of all mistakes) of those that survived the war and weren't such blatant assholes as to deserve to be immediately hanged.

As for the article a non-pay walled version is here https://www.jstor.org/stable/26004518?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
 
Last edited:
  • 4
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Coconut_Cookie

Captain
30 Badges
Apr 30, 2015
382
531
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
I kinda want to get into HOI4 because I'm done with Darkest Hour and HOI3. Italy was always my favorite and I know it doesn't have an updated focus tree yet but what about resources in this game? Italy had massive coal shortages and had to import those from Germany in HOI3 Italy had similar problems. How is the economic side of this portrayed in HOI4? I only see strategic resources that are used to build war material.
 
M

Mr. Wiggles

Guest
Not much that I didn't already knew, but the article is interesting nevertheless. I will have to search for more views on Ribbentrop, because from the Italian perspectives at least he sounds like quite the buffoon.

Basically the points are that Germany started the war despite repeated warnings that Italy would only be ready by 42, refused to sell them weapon and machinery, and overall hampered in many ways the operation in Egypt. Meanwhile the German felt extremely timid and loss averse when it comes to the invasion of England (which was delayed due to "bad weather" then shelved) and operations in the Mediterranean. The failure to deal with England also prevented Spain from joining the Axis and kept Gibraltar secure for the Allied.

And then, of course, they declared war on the USSR, of which nothing more need to be said. And when that predictably failed, asked for help from their allies. Interestingly, the Italian were rather happy to see Germany struggling, at least until they realized they would be dragged down with them too.

The author conclude with a note that the mutual distrust and failure to cooperate and coordinate their effort is probably more important to their defeat that any individual incompetence.

Some choice quotes :









Not really, you don't need to be particularly competent to realize that others are also not so.
I'm glad you liked it
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
M

Mr. Wiggles

Guest
I kinda want to get into HOI4 because I'm done with Darkest Hour and HOI3. Italy was always my favorite and I know it doesn't have an updated focus tree yet but what about resources in this game? Italy had massive coal shortages and had to import those from Germany in HOI3 Italy had similar problems. How is the economic side of this portrayed in HOI4? I only see strategic resources that are used to build war material.
It is very simplified and abstract.
The basics:
1) Civilian factories, used to build things and as a "currency" for trade
2) Military factories and Dockyards, used to build army equipment and ships. Production lines consume resources.
3) Raw Resources (steel, tungsten...). Extracted directly from the province.
4) Oil and fuel. Oil is the raw resource, it isnt used in production lines but is refined into fuel. Without Fuel your armies and navy have movement speed and combat effectiveness greatly reduced.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
73 Badges
Dec 23, 2006
5.969
6.025
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • War of the Roses
  • War of the Vikings
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
Basically the points are that Germany started the war despite repeated warnings that Italy would only be ready by 42, refused to sell them weapon and machinery, and overall hampered in many ways the operation in Egypt. Meanwhile the German felt extremely timid and loss averse when it comes to the invasion of England (which was delayed due to "bad weather" then shelved) and operations in the Mediterranean. The failure to deal with England also prevented Spain from joining the Axis and kept Gibraltar secure for the Allied.

And then, of course, they declared war on the USSR, of which nothing more need to be said. And when that predictably failed, asked for help from their allies.

I hope you're not implying Germany had any chance of successfully invading England, or that a war with Russia was nothing short of an inevitability, one that the sooner Germany started, the greater her chance of a successful outcome would be.

As for invading Poland in 1939, it was either that, or start reversing rearmament.

I kinda want to get into HOI4 because I'm done with Darkest Hour and HOI3. Italy was always my favorite and I know it doesn't have an updated focus tree yet but what about resources in this game? Italy had massive coal shortages and had to import those from Germany in HOI3 Italy had similar problems. How is the economic side of this portrayed in HOI4? I only see strategic resources that are used to build war material.

You might be in for a disappointment: HoI4 is far more detached from reality than its predecessor games, and minors and weaker majors like Italy are artificially buffed, so that they can easily paint the entire map their colour within a few years of the start of the game.
 
  • 8
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Bki

Captain
69 Badges
Jul 31, 2012
498
476
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Sengoku
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
I hope you're not implying Germany had any chance of successfully invading England, or that a war with Russia was nothing short of an inevitability, one that the sooner Germany started, the greater her chance of a successful outcome would be.

As for invading Poland in 1939, it was either that, or start reversing rearmament.

About Sealion : I know how impossible it is, but this is the point of view of the Italian at the time. Depending on what they knew, the invasion of Britain, if executed competently, might not have seemed as impossible as it is for us with the benefits of hindsight. In any case, if an invasion of the UK is indeed impossible, then they should not have spend 4 months wasting aircraft and pilots over Britain trying to prepare for it while being quite evasive with their allies about when this invasion is supposed to take place (especially since apparently, Sealion was supposed to be coordinated with the invasion of Egypt). They could instead have spent their effort in North Africa. And also try to figure how exactly how they're going to get a peace with Britain if they can't invade them.

As for the war with Russia, it was only inevitable due to the Nazis being Nazis. Stalin doing more than opportunistic land-grabs against weaker nations while everyone is too busy is far from a certainty. So the Nazis' moronic Lebensraum obsession is no excuse. The Germans wouldn't have the resources to beat the Russian if they went to war after? Then the answer is simply "don't go to war with Russia while you still haven't dealt with the UK".

Finally about Germany having to go to war in 39... Yes they did (or better get some free land grabs like Czechoslovakia, but there wasn't another of those), but the pact of steel was based on the assumption of no war until 1942. It's understandable for the Italian to be salty about that. And as far as the part of Italian incompetence due to their lack of preparation goes, it can be traced back to the German knowingly dragging their allies in a war they weren't ready for (though of course, Mussolini can't be absolved for his blunder in declaring war thinking it was almost over). Well at least they had someone to take the blames this way.
 
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
73 Badges
Dec 23, 2006
5.969
6.025
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • War of the Roses
  • War of the Vikings
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
About Sealion : I know how impossible it is, but this is the point of view of the Italian at the time. Depending on what they knew, the invasion of Britain, if executed competently, might not have seemed as impossible as it is for us with the benefits of hindsight. In any case, if an invasion of the UK is indeed impossible, then they should not have spend 4 months wasting aircraft and pilots over Britain trying to prepare for it while being quite evasive with their allies about when this invasion is supposed to take place (especially since apparently, Sealion was supposed to be coordinated with the invasion of Egypt). They could instead have spent their effort in North Africa. And also try to figure how exactly how they're going to get a peace with Britain if they can't invade them.

With the information they had at the time the Germans thought it could be possible with air superiority. With the information we have today, we know it would not have been possible.

As for the war with Russia, it was only inevitable due to the Nazis being Nazis. Stalin doing more than opportunistic land-grabs against weaker nations while everyone is too busy is far from a certainty. So the Nazis' moronic Lebensraum obsession is no excuse. The Germans wouldn't have the resources to beat the Russian if they went to war after? Then the answer is simply "don't go to war with Russia while you still haven't dealt with the UK".

If Hitler wasn't going to attack Russia, Stalin would eventually have attacked Germany. Let's not forget that because of the Allied blockade, Germany was dependent on Russian resources. In a world where Hitler never invades Russia and instead fortifies Germany's eastern frontier, Stalin continues expanding the Russian military until he thinks it's ready for war, then cuts exports to Germany and swoops in for the kill. Once the war had started, it was either kill the Bear or get killed by it.

And as far as the part of Italian incompetence due to their lack of preparation goes, it can be traced back to the German knowingly dragging their allies in a war they weren't ready for (though of course, Mussolini can't be absolved for his blunder in declaring war thinking it was almost over).

To be fair, Italy didn't perform well in WW1 either.
 
  • 5Like
  • 5
Reactions:

mursolini

Field Marshal
16 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
3.353
3.539
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II
As for the war with Russia, it was only inevitable due to the Nazis being Nazis. Stalin doing more than opportunistic land-grabs against weaker nations while everyone is too busy is far from a certainty. So the Nazis' moronic Lebensraum obsession is no excuse. The Germans wouldn't have the resources to beat the Russian if they went to war after? Then the answer is simply "don't go to war with Russia while you still haven't dealt with the UK".
That is kinda one-sided view. Since from Soviet perspective Germany was in for a long war, SU just collected what it could, and waited for German threat to be dealt with without them waisting resources and lives.

However the moment war is close to a closure, SU faces dilema, that any country or am alliance dominating Europe would eventually look at Russia as it's chief rival, and since nukes weren't that numerous and devastating, there was a real opportunity to invade USSR maybe till 1955.

Soviets were far weaker than United Europe.

So I don't think it is far fetched that SU would join the war eventually, they just wanted to do it like US did in WW1, to sit on the fence trading and negotiating, and then enter for one last push and secure buffer in eastern Europe. After all, SU had a lot of interests there, and no better opportunity to secure them.
 
  • 3
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Coconut_Cookie

Captain
30 Badges
Apr 30, 2015
382
531
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
You might be in for a disappointment: HoI4 is far more detached from reality than its predecessor games, and minors and weaker majors like Italy are artificially buffed, so that they can easily paint the entire map their colour within a few years of the start of the game.

Aw man I always liked the challenge of Italy in HOI3. But the focus trees do they work properly? An issue I have with the older games is that once something happens that isn't supposed to happen the whole game kinda stops working.
 

mursolini

Field Marshal
16 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
3.353
3.539
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II
You might be in for a disappointment: HoI4 is far more detached from reality than its predecessor games, and minors and weaker majors like Italy are artificially buffed, so that they can easily paint the entire map their colour within a few years of the start of the game.
HOI3 Italy is only very slightly less powerful in that regard to HOI4 Italy. It is weaker in research than it is in HOI4, but it isn't a huge deal, it has more than enough. It is about as powerful as France in both games, if mobilisation difference and focus trees are accounted for.
 

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
73 Badges
Dec 23, 2006
5.969
6.025
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • War of the Roses
  • War of the Vikings
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
Aw man I always liked the challenge of Italy in HOI3. But the focus trees do they work properly? An issue I have with the older games is that once something happens that isn't supposed to happen the whole game kinda stops working.

The focus trees allow for somewhat more fluid gameplay, and give players small goals to pursue. They're essentially timed decisions on a roadmap that give you almost free stuff. I say almost, because doing focuses costs 1 political power per day. However the usual 70 PP is a very small price to pay e.g. for 6 civilian factories, rather than constructing them yourself over the course of many months using your existing civilian factories to do it. The focuses are essentially a form of mana and aren't realistic, but this is the system they've gone for.

Also, in vanilla they don't allow for a historical timetable: all historical events tied to focuses happen on the wrong date and you can only do one focus at a time, so things like the historical German pre-war naval rearmament focus, you might find yourself not doing until well into the war, when all the other more useful focuses have been done.

Speaking of useful focuses, a lot of them are no-brainers, so much of the perceived freedom of choice of having a focus tree is nothing but an illusion, since you'll always want to grab certain focuses ASAP.

HOI3 Italy is only very slightly less powerful in that regard to HOI4 Italy. It is weaker in research than it is in HOI4, but it isn't a huge deal, it has more than enough. It is about as powerful as France in both games, if mobilisation difference and focus trees are accounted for.

It was weaker in every possible way in HoI3, though not as weak as IRL. I certainly don't recall Italy unlocking 1944 fighters with trivial cost in 1937-38 ('39-40 post-MtG research nerfs) and churning out thousands of them, or having the possibility to get Greece and Yugoslavia as pre-WW2 "freebies".
 
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:

coffeelingfine

Colonel
72 Badges
Jul 19, 2016
867
1.635
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
It was weaker in every possible way in HoI3, though not as weak as IRL. I certainly don't recall Italy unlocking 1944 fighters with trivial cost in 1937-38 ('39-40 post-MtG research nerfs) and churning out thousands of them, or having the possibility to get Greece and Yugoslavia as pre-WW2 "freebies".
Once your neutrality's low enough when Germany invites you to their faction, you can declare a limited war on Yugoslavia and annex them, without the allies getting involved

I've done it.
 

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
73 Badges
Dec 23, 2006
5.969
6.025
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • War of the Roses
  • War of the Vikings
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
Once your neutrality's low enough when Germany invites you to their faction, you can declare a limited war on Yugoslavia and annex them, without the allies getting involved

I've done it.

What about Greece?

HoI3 sadly lacked the extensive diplomatic network of guarantees, non-aggression pacts, etc. that were present IRL and in HoI2. HoI4 inherited that (some have been added with DLC), but unlike HoI3, 4 didn't even get most of the historical puppets right. In HoI2 you were in for a major war if you tried going on an early ahistorical conquest spree.

In any case, even without conquests Italy's still considerably stronger in HoI4 than it was in HoI3. The research capacity alone makes an enormous difference.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

mursolini

Field Marshal
16 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
3.353
3.539
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II
It was weaker in every possible way in HoI3, though not as weak as IRL. I certainly don't recall Italy unlocking 1944 fighters with trivial cost in 1937-38 ('39-40 post-MtG research nerfs) and churning out thousands of them, or having the possibility to get Greece and Yugoslavia as pre-WW2 "freebies".
I doubt it. Industry wise, HOI3 Italy is far better, since the game allows far easier snowball of IC. Yes, it has a bonus to fighters, to build which, it needs synthetic rubber, while in HOI3 it could just spam MR fighter, and do everything with it, maybe a few CAS for ship attack. It's major for, Britain and USA can do same, so not a huge advantage IMO.

Then, IMO, it is relationship to other countries that matters. Italy could easily achieve industrial level of Germany in HOI3 because slots were limitless, resources stashed pre-war, and unit build extremely narrow, easily enough with it's research. In HOI4, Italy is good at fighter tech, but that is about it.

I just don't think much changed for Italy relative to new game. Yes you are strong, but so are your enemies, in fact your neighbors are minors that received larger buffs.
 

CrazyZombie

Soviet Bias Tankie
91 Badges
Jun 6, 2016
2.866
408
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
Aw man I always liked the challenge of Italy in HOI3. But the focus trees do they work properly? An issue I have with the older games is that once something happens that isn't supposed to happen the whole game kinda stops working.
Focus trees do work as a source of "kind of strategic planning" for the player with general gameplay around them revolving around pressing colourful buttons and getting treats as a reward. Also, it is the easiest way to script AI actually do something. Seriously, when there is no focus, AI won't do anything.

So, in the end, focus trees were a feature to invite casual players into the series (speaking about my own experience here) but at the same time they have become the doom of the game. They worked when it was release state with mostly historical focuses, but with taken course for alternative history actions of AI often look suicidal and extremely retarded, because there are logical conflicts between different strategic paths, each AI take at the start.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions: