German Divisions

[GPounda]

Good morning;

Todays question is this:

how realistic is it to use actual Division Templates from the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS in HOI-4?

for example:

Heer Infantry was composed of the following:

9 Infantry Battalions
3 Artillery Battalions
3 Anti Tank Battalions
Recce
Anti Tank
Engineers
Signals
Artillery

Heer Armour consisted of:

2 Medium Tank Battalions
2 Mechanized Infantry Battalions
2 Motorized Infantry Battalions
3 Artillery Battalions
Recce
Self-propelled Artillery
Engineers
AA

Waffen SS Panzer Divisions were:

2 Medium Tank Battalions
2 Mechanized Infantry Battalions
4 Motorized Infantry Battalions
4 Artillery Battalions
Recce
Self-propelled Artillery
Engineers
AA

Thoughts?

 

[thedarkendstar]

Those arty better be motorized else they will be really slow for the tanks.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Just as long as you are mindful that HoI and real life battalions don't mesh together 1:1 (HoI artillery battalions are actually regiments, real tank battalions could be anything between 30-80+ tanks, Germans being in the upper end) and you choose to model the amount of equipment rather than formations I don't see a problem. And of course, it's not possible to use motorized artillery on the scale Germans used in-game so you'll need more SPGs.

 

[GPounda]

Just as long as you are mindful that HoI and real life battalions don't mesh together 1:1 (HoI artillery battalions are actually regiments, real tank battalions could be anything between 30-80+ tanks, Germans being in the upper end) and you choose to model the amount of equipment rather than formations I don't see a problem. And of course, it's not possible to use motorized artillery on the scale Germans used in-game so you'll need more SPGs.

Thank you. So if I'm following you. . . 4 Artillery Battalions are actually closer to 1 Regiment and a support unit?

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Thank you. So if I'm following you. . . 4 Artillery Battalions are actually closer to 1 Regiment and a support unit?

Halfway between by tube count.

 

[GPounda]

Cool, thanks!!!

 

[ltccone]

Good morning;

Todays question is this:

how realistic is it to use actual Division Templates from the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS in HOI-4?

for example:

Heer Infantry was composed of the following:

9 Infantry Battalions
3 Artillery Battalions
3 Anti Tank Battalions
Recce
Anti Tank
Engineers
Signals
Artillery

Heer Armour consisted of:

2 Medium Tank Battalions
2 Mechanized Infantry Battalions
2 Motorized Infantry Battalions
3 Artillery Battalions
Recce
Self-propelled Artillery
Engineers
AA

Waffen SS Panzer Divisions were:

2 Medium Tank Battalions
2 Mechanized Infantry Battalions
4 Motorized Infantry Battalions
4 Artillery Battalions
Recce
Self-propelled Artillery
Engineers
AA

Thoughts?

The year made a big difference in German TO&E. A 1940 panzer division was not the same as a 1941 panzer division. Germany doubled the number of panzer divisions by cutting tank strength in half.

 

[Sidetrack Nick]

Trying to copy real division templates will drive you batty. What will drive you extra batty is that the computer and any human opponents you have will not follow any realistic template at all.
Other things that will drive you batty.
Some panzer divisions have stug battalions attached to them.
They had a recon battalion full of armored cars, half-tracks, motorcyles and sometimes panzer II's.
Not all tank regiments were made of the same tank type. Sometimes tank companies had Stugs/Panzerjagers replace the turreted tanks. Many times Panzer III's and IV's would be in one company, and panthers in another. In this game, the computer just fills in with whatever med. tanks are available.
Flak companies were a combination of half-tracks and towed flak of many calibers. But towed equipment, like towed arty and AT is only available as support. Panzer divisions had everything motorized, and late war, if lucky, some mechanized. Flakpanzers were integrated into the panzer regiment, so wouldn't count against the #s in the flak battalion.
There are no mechanized rocket launchers, and stuka-du-fuzz launchers (rockets attached to sides of half-tracks) only existed as part of an engineer battalion.
Typically only one battalion of the two panzer-grenadier regiments was mechanized, though the engineer battalion was also mechanized (With the stuka-du-fuzz's).

So, to make up a true 1944 panzer division, you need factories churning out panzer IV's (or jagpanzer III's/IV's) and Panthers, Mechanized, motorized, assault guns/stugs, armored artillery, motorized artillery, mechanized and towed AA, toed AT, mechanized and towed rocket launchers, armored cars, maybe armored AA (just a few, like 6 per regiment), and well.... good luck! That's a lot of factories, and the game doesn't even have all those things in it to make in the first place, though black ICE mod might.

Corps support isn't included in that, but that's where you'd get your jadpanthers and all tiger types, flamethrowing tanks, extra-heavy arty and AA, extra stug battalions, maybe some mechanized AA too.

My point to all this is, you'll go nuts trying to even it all out, and by the time you produce enough equipment to flush out your divisions according to the best copies of division templates you can make, either the war will be over, or you'll have to replace or change your divisions.

There's also combat width to worry about. How do you squeeze it all into 20 width, or pad it up to 40 width, or whichever widths you prefer?

While I do try to balance out my divisions and not cheesy like comp. players might make them, or retarded like the AI makes them, I try not to fret over it. The game is abstract, be abstract. Good luck!

 

[cellinis]

There's also combat width to worry about. How do you squeeze it all into 20 width, or pad it up to 40 width, or whichever widths you prefer?

While I do try to balance out my divisions and not cheesy like comp. players might make them, or retarded like the AI makes them, I try not to fret over it. The game is abstract, be abstract. Good luck!

Thankfully, AI templates can be changed and so can combat width! Unfortunately, I do agree that even with that, it requires a lot of abstraction. Nonetheless, I've had a few fun games with close-to-realistic divisions for both me and the AI, especially when you play irregular combat widths that ensure that there is a very limited possibility of min-maxing.

 

[GPounda]

What I've found works is an army of 9 Waffen SS Motorized Infantry Divisions and 3 Panzer Divisions - excellent punch.

One question though, when building a Division are the blocks considered Battalions or Regiments?

 

[browd]

One question though, when building a Division are the blocks considered Battalions or Regiments?

Does it really matter?

One "block" of infantry is 1000 manpower, which, if you equate that to US military units, is a bit larger than a battalion and considerably smaller than a brigade. One "block" of line artillery is 500 manpower and 24 guns, which seems about right on manpower for a WW2 artillery battalion but with twice as many guns.

 

[GPounda]

Does it really matter?

One "block" of infantry is 1000 manpower, which, if you equate that to US military units, is a bit larger than a battalion and considerably smaller than a brigade. One "block" of line artillery is 500 manpower and 24 guns, which seems about right on manpower for a WW2 artillery battalion but with twice as many guns.

It matter to me, thank you.

 

[Secret Master]

Let's keep in mind that nations during the war did not have the same size battalions or regiments or the same equipment tables for them. The game, in an effort to be rational and understandable without attending a war college for each major power that would teach you how all those OOBs and ToEs work, standardizes everything. This makes it impossible to get exact historical templates. That's just the price you pay for playing a game that let's players pick any nation they want.

So, to make up a true 1944 panzer division, you need factories churning out panzer IV's (or jagpanzer III's/IV's) and Panthers, Mechanized, motorized, assault guns/stugs, armored artillery, motorized artillery, mechanized and towed AA, toed AT, mechanized and towed rocket launchers, armored cars, maybe armored AA (just a few, like 6 per regiment), and well.... good luck! That's a lot of factories, and the game doesn't even have all those things in it to make in the first place, though black ICE mod might.

It's not as bad as you think.

If you start building Panzer IVs, then switch to Panthers, you will have both Panthers and Panzer IV's in your inventory. You don't need to keep Panzer IV production lines going (you can if you want to maintain production bonuses, but that's a different discussion). So, right there, your 1944 Panzer divisions will have both Panthers and Panzer IV's in the field in various ratios. Even the last time I ran Germany in MP and the war lasted to 1944 and I had started producing Panthers in 1941, I still had Panzer IV's in the field in divisions.

There's no reason you can't fire up 5-10 MIC for MECH and do a progressive replacement of MOT. MECH is expensive, but doable. You can just tell your panzer divisions to trade 1 MOT for a MECH, then produce MECH until it fills up.

Nothing stops players from putting a few TDs (StuGs) in panzer divisions. It's viable when you anticipate certain kinds of opposition. You don't need a lot, and TD battalions use less width than SPART.

I put SPART (which covers SPGs in HOI4) in my panzer divisions all the time, so I have to produce them.

I don't put AT in my panzer divisions, but nothing stops you from putting some support AT in a panzer division. It won't slow you down and won't ruin the division.

I sometimes put AA in my panzer divisions. It's not hard. Support AA is easy, but setting up a production line with 5-10 MIC for SPAAT is not a bad decision. SPAAT has low width, so you can get a nice set of FlaK panzers without tying up too much of the division's width and resources. It's more important in the current iteration of the game anyway.

I have always assumed Recon companies have armored cars. And I almost always have Recon in my panzer divisions (speed boost for the lulz).

The only thing that doesn't really happen that often in HOI4 is light, medium, and heavy armor sharing a division. This is due to how speed works. I will readily concede that putting Tigers in your Panzer divisions alongside Panthers is a poor game choice. But nothing stops you from putting Tigers alongside infantry...

There is no reason you can't approximate a historical template and the ToE, especially since outdated equipment will still be in circulation unless you specifically forbid its use. On paper, you divisions look like monolithic structures with pure equipment: Panthers, FlaK 41, and StuGs IVs. In the field, they have a confusing mix of Panzer IVs, Panthers, Flak 16 and 18, StuGs III and IV, to say nothing of the assortment of infantry weapons floating around.

 

[Dalwin]

Thank you. So if I'm following you. . . 4 Artillery Battalions are actually closer to 1 Regiment and a support unit?

Even then that one line unit must be either self-propelled artillery or motorized rocket artillery. If not, you'll be travelling at foot speed.

As to tanks, historically panzer divisions tended to have a broad mix of types including PzI and PzII, even later in the war. HOI4 does not let you do this unless you mix medium and light battalions in the same division. You probably have to go with at least 4 tank battalions to get close to the historical vehicle count for a division (probably 2 medium and 2 light).

Such divisions are obviously not optimal if one is trying to min/max efficiency within the game system. They are, however, also not broken to the point where one could not play that way and do well.

What I've found works is an army of 9 Waffen SS Motorized Infantry Divisions and 3 Panzer Divisions - excellent punch.

One question though, when building a Division are the blocks considered Battalions or Regiments?

The sub unit designations are not entirely consistent when compared to historical TO&E's. Then again different nations were not consistent compared to each other so there is probably no way the game could have gotten it entirely right.

I think the best general guideline is to consider an individual block in the support column to be a company (though some were actually battalions). An individual block in the main grid is a battalion. One column in the main grid is a regiment. A unit which consists of only one column in the main grid (with or without supports) is an independent brigade.

That being said, if trying to get as close as possible to historical units, I think it more important to look at total vehicle counts rather than organization of subunits.

 

[ForsakenSoldier]

But nothing stops you from putting Tigers alongside infantry...

This can be very awesome, especially if you want to be lazy and never micromanage; producing nothing but Infantry Divisions with a heavy tank battalion or 2 works a lot better than you might think. Also, if you go that route as Germany you're better off taking Grand Battleplan instead of Mobile Warfare