German Division Templates

[Swinds]

I realize that you can rename the template but you are missing my point. We now have xp points that allow us to change the division design. There should be at least the templates of the Divisions you start the game with.

That means Infantry, Mountain, Cavalry, Panzer, Motorized Infantry (sorry for mixing my GB and Germany names) in 1936. An Elite (SS) division should be a player choice and they can do this either at there own wim or by being given the template for a decision. I don't mind either as long as the motorized division is just a motorized division in 1936.

 

[franc001sher]

Maybe there would be the historical templates for the major countries.

 

[jamesd]

I have been an avid watcher of the WWW videos and I have something that I think should be changed.

I son't think there should be a SS Division template available to the Germans from the start. IMHO this should be a normal Motorised Division.

The SS Division template should be something that you research to be come available when SS units were made into Division sized units.

Don't get me wrong I think there inclusion is good, in the game way I just don't think it models the German army and how it developed. If you make this a decision to build SS units it might work.

In the latest WWW no. 4 you can see Germany building SS divisions 14., 15. etc in 1940. When in real life Germany build Motorised divisions to work with their Panzer Divisions.

The first 3 SS regiments were formed prior to 1936 and were intended to be grouped as a division for military operations, although that did not happen until after the Polish campaign had ended. In contrast the army did not form any motorised divisions until 1937. This means the 1936 template is correct in being named an SS Division. It should however not be prioritised as an elite template as the SS was not prioritised ahead of the army at that time when it came to distributing equipment.

In forming army motorised divisions in 1937, the player should copy the SS template, as they had the same basic structure of 9 infantry battalions plus comparable supporting equipment. The big split comes in late 1939, when the army reduces their motorised divisions to 2 regiments in order to make them easier to control and to provide more infantry for the panzer divisions, while the SS divisions stayed with 9 infantry battalions.

An alternative would be to start the SS as independent regiments and add a 9 infantry battalion motorised division template by event or national focus in 1937. Then in late 1939 the army template could be copied so as to produce the SS DIvision template, while the army template was reduced in size.

 

[tommylotto]

I really, really hope they allow templates to be added by event and existing templates changed by event. So, US can go from square to triangular. Italy can go from triangular to square to square plus CCNN legion. The XP system will become handcuffs otherwise.

 

[hkrommel]

The XP system will become handcuffs otherwise.

Yeah the XP system scares me a little to be honest. I'm sure it'll be one of the first things to be modded though.

 

[Denkt]

The whole point of the XP system is to be the key that temporarly unlock your handcuffs.

 

[teamgene]

The first 3 SS regiments were formed prior to 1936 and were intended to be grouped as a division for military operations, although that did not happen until after the Polish campaign had ended. In contrast the army did not form any motorised divisions until 1937. This means the 1936 template is correct in being named an SS Division. It should however not be prioritised as an elite template as the SS was not prioritised ahead of the army at that time when it came to distributing equipment.

In forming army motorised divisions in 1937, the player should copy the SS template, as they had the same basic structure of 9 infantry battalions plus comparable supporting equipment. The big split comes in late 1939, when the army reduces their motorised divisions to 2 regiments in order to make them easier to control and to provide more infantry for the panzer divisions, while the SS divisions stayed with 9 infantry battalions.

An alternative would be to start the SS as independent regiments and add a 9 infantry battalion motorised division template by event or national focus in 1937. Then in late 1939 the army template could be copied so as to produce the SS DIvision template, while the army template was reduced in size.

I believe LAH was first SS unit created and was not part of the first SS division, they was Germania, Der Fuhrer, and Deutschland. How special their training before Hausser set up military training is open to debate.

 

[jamesd]

I believe LAH was first SS unit created and was not part of the first SS division, they was Germania, Der Fuhrer, and Deutschland. How special their training before Hausser set up military training is open to debate.

The Der Fuhrer Regiment was not established until after the Anschluss so at game start there were 3 SS Regiments - Leibstandarte, Deutschland and Germania. All that prioritising a template does is ensure that it gets the newest equipment first, and the SS units were definitely not top of the list for new equipment in 1939/40, in fact they were often left with inferior numbers and quality of artillery pieces compared to the army motorised divisions.

 

[Swinds]

My point still stands that in 1936 there were no SS divisions, these came later. The SS regiments are not amalgamated into a Division in 1936, or 37 or 38.

Yes I just looked up 13. Infanterie-Division (mot) and this was motorised in October 1937. The 20. Infanterie-Division (mot) was motorised about the same time.

So that should be a player decision, the player should be given the template on this decision.

There is a further question about splitting a Template and only changing the new template (to motorised) and changing a Division to the new template which I was lead to believe was possible.

This is as valid to the GB as it is Germany. Note the 56th Division was formed as the 1st London Division on the outbreak of WW2 as a motorised Division before becoming just an Infantry Division and being renamed to 56th Division.

 

[jamesd]

My point still stands that in 1936 there were no SS divisions, these came later. The SS regiments are not amalgamated into a Division in 1936, or 37 or 38.

Yes I just looked up 13. Infanterie-Division (mot) and this was motorised in October 1937. The 20. Infanterie-Division (mot) was motorised about the same time.

So that should be a player decision, the player should be given the template on this decision.

There is a further question about splitting a Template and only changing the new template (to motorised) and changing a Division to the new template which I was lead to believe was possible.

This is as valid to the GB as it is Germany. Note the 56th Division was formed as the 1st London Division on the outbreak of WW2 as a motorised Division before becoming just an Infantry Division and being renamed to 56th Division.

I did say an alternative would be to have the SS as regiments in 1936 and add the 9 battalion army motorised division through a decision or national focus.

 

[Procyanide]

I was under the impression that you can add as many division templates as you like, meaning you can build gebirgs templates even if the game does not give them to you at start.

What the experience does is unlock extra slots for your divisions. So extra support battalions or regiments. So Germany, for example, would start out with a 3x3 division that you can "upgrade" by unlocking extra slots. These slots are only added in the template you unlocked them in, meaning you can have an 4x4 INF + 4 support battalions, even though your motorized divisions are only 3x2 and have no support battalions unlocked.

Example: Germany in 1936 can build a new template for Gebirgsjäger, the standard division template for germany starts out with 3x2 with 2 support battalion slots unlocked. You want your gebirgsjäger to become a 3x3 division with 3 support battalions, meaning you will have to unlock 4 slots: 3 regiment slots and 1 support battalion slot

 

[GsusNSV]

I was under the impression that you can add as many division templates as you like, meaning you can build gebirgs templates even if the game does not give them to you at start.

What the experience does is unlock extra slots for your divisions. So extra support battalions or regiments. So Germany, for example, would start out with a 3x3 division that you can "upgrade" by unlocking extra slots. These slots are only added in the template you unlocked them in, meaning you can have an 4x4 INF + 4 support battalions, even though your motorized divisions are only 3x2 and have no support battalions unlocked.

Example: Germany in 1936 can build a new template for Gebirgsjäger, the standard division template for germany starts out with 3x2 with 2 support battalion slots unlocked. You want your gebirgsjäger to become a 3x3 division with 3 support battalions, meaning you will have to unlock 4 slots: 3 regiment slots and 1 support battalion slot

You need Land XP for every change in a template.
You want to add a Arty battalion? 5XP
Change this infanterie battalion to mountaineer? 5XP
Add a new brigade? 25XP

The same rules apply to new templates.
So for a 3x3:
3 brigades = 3*25 = 75 XP
3x2 battalions (The first one is included in the brigade cost) = 6*5 = 30 XP
So to create a new template you need 105 Land XP.
Nothing you can do before the fall of France. As the SCW won't probably give that much.


(Of course all these numbers are subject to change)

 

[Procyanide]

You need Land XP for every change in a template.
You want to add a Arty battalion? 5XP
Change this infanterie battalion to mountaineer? 5XP
Add a new brigade? 25XP

The same rules apply to new templates.
So for a 3x3:
3 brigades = 3*25 = 75 XP
3x2 battalions (The first one is included in the brigade cost) = 6*5 = 30 XP
So to create a new template you need 105 Land XP.
Nothing you can do before the fall of France. As the SCW won't probably give that much.


(Of course all these numbers are subject to change)

Thats unfortunate, why would they not allow you to simply 'reorganise' units in existing templates, so you can make as many 3x2 templates as you want and only pay XP to upgrade/expand them? 105 XP seems like a ton unless you are actually at war.

 

[GsusNSV]

105 XP seems like a ton unless you are actually at war.

That is the point. People would just rush to the best possible division template and build only that. There would be no need to ajust the templates, unless the start of the game.

[..]there was no limitations on what you could do. This meant that players could use their knowledge of WWII and game mechanics to instantly re-organise their army along the optimum lines for their situation. [...] For HoI 4 we want to keep the idea of customising your Divisions, but make it both harder to jump right to the optimum setup and easier to carry out your changes.

[...]

If you can build a type of Division, you have access to a basic/historical Division Template, and you can customise it using Land Combat Experience. You can use Experience to swap out Battalions, or unlock either new Brigades or Battalions, but you cannot simply optimise your division makeup on day 1. Despite the name, you earn a little Land Combat Experience even while at peace, but the primary gain is from combat. The rate of gain depends on the proportion of your units in combat, the more of your units that are fighting, the faster you gain Experience. This also means that smaller nations do not necessarily earn less than larger nations, as it's not the total number of units that matters, and large nations will likely not get much Experience when rolling over small ones.[...]

 

[LostinSpice]

Possible ways to generate German XP per war could be:

1. Appoint a military theorist.
2. Keep up a steady training regime.
3. Lend lease to aggressors. Concentrate on infantry equipment as this is guaranteed to be used. Reuse your old aircraft and send them.
4. Get involved in the SCW and send volunteers to other punch ups.
5. Perhaps moving the German navy off the coast of Spain would initiate shore bombardment and thus gain XP?
6. Ally with Italy then move aircraft to Sardinia where they may be able to reach Majorca then act as the Condor Legion?

Overall I have to agree that before the war players have to make hard choices on their templates. Once war begins then from WWW XPs seem thick and fast, though air XP seemed much slower than the army and navy. Come to think about it I never saw many ME109s over Western Germany when over 1400 were battling 700 bombers...hmmm.