German Division Templates

[Swinds]

I have been an avid watcher of the WWW videos and I have something that I think should be changed.

I son't think there should be a SS Division template available to the Germans from the start. IMHO this should be a normal Motorised Division.

The SS Division template should be something that you research to be come available when SS units were made into Division sized units.

Don't get me wrong I think there inclusion is good, in the game way I just don't think it models the German army and how it developed. If you make this a decision to build SS units it might work.

In the latest WWW no. 4 you can see Germany building SS divisions 14., 15. etc in 1940. When in real life Germany build Motorised divisions to work with their Panzer Divisions.

 

[bkuepers]

Agreed. I'll likely simply mod a lot of this myself to get the division names how I'd prefer them. I would rather name these Motorized or Grenadier and then possibly PanzerGrenadier.

 

[Swinds]

I know we can call divisions what we like, it is after all only a name. I always thought that the SS Divisions should be a decision the play should be able to make. The other option is more elite units and make the Panzer Divisions elite.

I assume you would have to change the name of the unit manually to get a named Division.

 

[Denkt]

SS division use normal motorised battalions. The game don't have any special battalions which only one country have access to.

The SS division is a normal motorised division that have elite status (which is only a priority level for equipment). If you wan't you can rename the division and change its priority status.

 

[Swinds]

SS division use normal motorised battalions. The game don't have any special battalions which only one country have access to.

The SS division is a normal motorised division that have elite status (which is only a priority level for equipment). If you wan't you can rename the division and change its priority status.

You don't think that SS units should be a player choice or a decision for an extra template??

 

[Denkt]

I don't think there should be special battalions like SS battalion.

 

[bkuepers]

I don't think there should be special battalions like SS battalion.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. With the way equipment, training, etc. are modeled in this game, you can set the division to elite status and give it a lot of support companies/battalions and self propelled guns. Then train them to normal status and put them in combat a lot to make them an elite fighting force.

 

[Praetori]

I don't think there should be special battalions like SS battalion.

There won't be as far as we've been show either. But I wouldn't be surprised if stuff like that appears in a DLC/Expansion down the road.
One could argue that units like the US paratroopers, rangers, SS, Fallschirmjäger etc were more susceptible to training and and had a higher morale-base due to their nature as volunteers and being more committed than the regular soldier. At the same time the demanding "elite" status of these units also meant that fewer candidates actually passed examination and basic training and thus the final product were units that were simply a bit better than regular army units, especially when favored in terms of equipment. I would love to see exercise/training options that are a bit more advanced in terms of cost/MP attrition but for release it's not really that important. Toe-to-toe a division of "elites" weren't that significantly better than an equally well equipped and supplied normal army unit, at least not in any operationally relevant scale.

 

[CyberianK]

I agree that the initial naming is wrong and it should be a Motorized Division instead.

If they want to have a SS one at the beginning of the game for "popularity reasons" a solution would be to have the template existing but just have Zero SS Divisions created at the start of the game. As in general I think there is way too few templates and as the experience is limited before you actually go to war there is no way to accurately depict a diverse number of 100 divisions before the war starts. I don't want all my infantry divisions and all my tank divisions to be equipped the same. I want many different ones some more basic some bigger and some maybe with special roles.

The current experience limit does not allow for that it only allows your whole army to initially consist of about 5-6 different division templates. Yes the template designer itself is very awesome but the limited number of initial templates is really an unneeded huge simplification of army composition. Easy to fix though hope they do something about it else we have to rely on mods again.

 

[jodirola]

I agree that the initial naming is wrong and it should be a Motorized Division instead.

If they want to have a SS one at the beginning of the game for "popularity reasons" a solution would be to have the template existing but just have Zero SS Divisions created at the start of the game. As in general I think there is way too few templates and as the experience is limited before you actually go to war there is no way to accurately depict a diverse number of 100 divisions before the war starts. I don't want all my infantry divisions and all my tank divisions to be equipped the same. I want many different ones some more basic some bigger and some maybe with special roles.

The current experience limit does not allow for that it only allows your whole army to initially consist of about 5-6 different division templates. Yes the template designer itself is very awesome but the limited number of initial templates is really an unneeded huge simplification of army composition. Easy to fix though hope they do something about it else we have to rely on mods again.

you know what they going to tell you right? "if you want different infantry divisions with different rolls do their templates bla bla bla"

 

[CyberianK]

you know what they going to tell you right? "if you want different infantry divisions with different rolls do their templates bla bla bla"

That's the thing I can't before the war starts for XP limitations.
I want at least:
Light tank division template
Medium tank division template
Motorized Infantry template
Motorized Infantry with added tank destroyer and AA template
Mititia/Garrison Infantry
Standard Infantry
Elite Infantry
Gebirgsjäger
Kavallerie

Probably even more. That is at least 4 more than what is existing in the game in 1936 (Infantry, Panzer, SS, Cavalry, Gebirgs). I can't do that with the experience I get before going to war and even if I could its probably not a good use of the EXP. The way the system works it is inherently punishing a diverse number of templates.

So instead of having 30 Infantry of type A, 7 of type B and 3 of type C as I would maybe want to do it seems the game wants you to instead just use 40 of the same Infantry Divisions.

 

[Denkt]

you know what they going to tell you right? "if you want different infantry divisions with different rolls do their templates bla bla bla"

That is correct. Why should the game have stuff that is only available to a single country?

 

[wisecat]

IMO SS-Div's should appear by events. Does anyone beside me recall how they were handled in HOI2 CORE mod?
Basically you had an event "Rise of the SS" where you could decide to militarise SS (historical) or leave it as a party security only. If you chose historical you got a drain on supplies production, but soon received a free MOT Divs LsSSAH and SS-Vt, then by more events it split into further divs etc., etc..

Moreover, everybody should keep in mind that not all by far SS-Divs were or even were meant to be "elite". Non-germanic "Divisions of the SS" were quite often of poor quality and low discipline. About 1943 Himmler, through political maneuvering managed to get all "foreign legions" transfered from Wehrmach to SS.

So historical Divs NN 14-16, 19-21, 23-31, 33, 34, 36 (especially this one, which was basically a Strafcommando writ large), 37 should not be elite. 38th was a collection of odds and sods plus the teachers from Bad Tolz officer school. N. 40-45 were more declarations of intent.

Of course, an interesting question would be how the SS expansion would have happened if war was going good for GER. IMO if it is handled by events the obvious trigger will be the choice between "Desperate defense" and "further blitzkrieg development" (don't remember the correct name for the second one) techs in GER doctrine tree.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

You don't think that SS units should be a player choice or a decision for an extra template??

It IS a player choice. You can, right from the start, rename the division or even delete it if you wish.

 

[CrasherZZ]

It IS a player choice. You can, right from the start, rename the division or even delete it if you wish.

This is very similar to the militia/garrison thread, but on the other end of the quality spectrum. Since elites, militia, regulars, and garrison division are all composed of the same types of battallions, you can give them whatever labels you want. It's simpler than having a separate tech tree like in HOI3 or creating extra templates.

 

[hkrommel]

I don't understand why a specific "special" unit would be needed. What were the SS other than "politically correct" units who were prioritized for upgrades? You can just prioritize different units and name them whatever you want. If you want to be more historical, name them SS. If not, name them "Goering's Untermensch Division."

Repeat for other countries. You can name elite units in the UK Gurkhas, or "Fergus' Bagpipes." In the US, name them Rangers, or "Capitalist pig-dogs." Whatever you want.

TL;DR you don't need an event to do something you can do yourself.

 

[tommylotto]

Names are names, but I like detail. Here is a 1940 Wehrmacht motorized division, and here is a 1940 SS motorized division. I hate reading german hieroglyphics but if you can decipher them, they provide a tons of information. Not only are the templates different (the Wehrmacht has two regiments of three battalions, whereas the SS has three regiments of three battalions), but the battalions themselves are different. The SS battalions seem to have more riflemen and fewer machine guns. And see here, in 1941 an SS battalion can be significantly different in that it can have 4 (as oppose to 3) squads (?) per company (?). I'm not sure of the nomenclature, but obviously not all infantry battalions look the same. Some have more firepower in machine guns and mortars, others have considerably larger manpower with more riflemen. I would not mind seeing different battalions types to reflect this -- light infantry, infantry and heavy infantry.

 

[CrasherZZ]

I would not mind seeing different battalions types to reflect this -- light infantry, infantry and heavy infantry.

I would like the variety too but I wonder if it's already modeled as light infantry, infantry, and heavy - Weapons I, Weapons II, and Weapsons III, respectively. Also there is the quality of the manpower pool too? Unfortunately, I get the feeling that PDS doesn't want to model too much more detail below the division level.

 

[teamgene]

Well I believe the 4 SS divisions represent the 4 SS pre war regiments, but I could be wrong.

 

[franc001sher]

I'd like regiment combat team (RCT) and divide a division into 4 parts in a game: 3 expanded regiments and the heavy regiment.
An expanded regiment is composed by 3 line battalions, a 105 mm or alp howitzer battalion and a battalion with the regimental fire and supporting units.
A heavy regiment has a battalion for each of line, 155 mm howitzer, anti-tank, anti-aircraft and the armored.
Besides the units above, all of the RCTs are consisted by the engineer, signal, recon, medical, maintenance and supply companies.