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Twoflower

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In the scenarios after 1492 there are several annoying errors about how German countries are setup. This might be hopeless, but I'll try to list and justify the most obvious of them:

1617:
- Saxony should be removed from the Protestant alliance
reasoning: Saxony was not part of the Evangelic Union and in fact supported the Emperor in Bohemia
- the Palatinate should be leader of an alliance with Hessen and Württemberg
reasoning: these states indeed formed the Evangelic Union
- Baden, Strassburg, Würzburg, Cologne and Münster should be part of the Austro-Bavarian alliance
reasoning: all these states (Baden is catholic in the scenario, so I assume it represents Baden-Baden) were part of the Catholic League
- Cologne should be a vassal of Bavaria
reasoning: Cologne is vassalized to Bavaria in the Bavarian Archbishops event in 1580
- Mecklenburg's vassalage to Sweden should be removed
reasoning: there's no reason whatsoever for it

1700:
- Saxony should own the Erz province and have a shield on it
reasoning: Lusatia, the territory between Saxony and Silesia, was ceded to Saxony in 1635. August the Strong was quite keen on acquiring Silesia because this would have given him a connection between Saxony and Poland
- Münster should be owned by Prussia and Kleve by the Palatinate
reasoning: giving both provinces to Prussia is unjustified. The Kleve inheritance was divided between Brandenburg and Palatinate-Neuburg, so if Kleve and Münster represent the former Kleve territories (i.e. Jülich, Berg, Kleve, Mark and Ravensberg) in that scenario, they should be divided between Prussia and the Palatinate (the Palatinate had been united with Palatinate-Neuburg in 1685)
- the city of Pfalz should be Neustadt, the city of Mainz Mannheim
reasoning: currently Mainz is the capital of both provinces, which is obviously a bug. Neustadt was rather small, but still the administrative center and most significant city of the Palatinate left / west of the Rhine; Mannheim replaced Heidelberg as capital of the Palatinate in the 18th century.
- the capital of the Palatinate should be moved to Mainz province
reasoning: the core of the Palatinate, including the cities of Heidelberg and Mannheim, was east of the Rhine. This way it's possible for the left bank of the Rhine to be ceded to France (which is historical)
- Prussia ought to have a shield on Vorpommern
reasoning: Brandenburg was rightful heir to all of Pommerania, most of Vorpommern was taken from Sweden in the end of the Great Nordic War and the rest in the Congress of Vienna. Besides, they get that shield in the Inheritance of Pommerania.
- the city of Hinterpommern should be Stargard, the city of Vorpommern Stettin
reasoning: Stettin was still Swedish in 1700, so if the province is owned by Prussia, it must be a different one. Stargard, the capital of Hinterpommern under Prussian rule, would be a good choice.
- Cologne should be a vassal of Bavaria
reasoning: Cologne is vassalized to Bavaria in the Bavarian Archbishops event in 1580
- Hannover should have a shield on Bremen
reasoning: Hannover conquered the territory of the former Archbishopric of Bremen from Sweden in the Great Nordic War
- Oldenburg should be owned by Denmark
reasoning: Oldenburg was never ever part of Hannover. The county was inherited by Denmark in 1667.

1773:

- Saxony should own the Erz province and have a shield on it
reasoning: same as above
- Münster should be owned by Prussia and Kleve by the Palatinate
reasoning: same as above; giving Münster to Hessen is plain wrong
- the capital of the Palatinate should be moved to Mainz province
reasoning: same as above
- the city of Pfalz should be Neustadt, the city of Mainz Mannheim
reasoning: same as above
- Mecklenburg and Oldenburg should be independent vassals of Prussia and Russia respectively
reasoning: Alright, I don't quite buy the logic of having England own Hannover instead of keeping it as a vassal, in the way the events are set up. But I guess Paradox did it for a reason, and if we follow that logic, at least Hannover and Oldenburg will be English. Oldenburg and Mecklenburg however both were not part of Hannover, so they ought to be independent.
- Bavaria should have shields on Pfalz, Mainz and Kleve
reasoning: the Palatinate and Bavaria were united in 1777. Since there is no inheritance event, there should at least be shields.

1795:

- Bavaria should own Pfalz, Mainz and Kleve and have shields on the provinces
reasoning: as already mentioned, Bavaria and the Palatinate were united in 1777, with Bavaria clearly the center of the merged Wittelsbach state
- Bavaria should have shields on Tirol and Salzburg
reasoning: these two provinces were part of Bavaria for a while during the Napoleonic Wars and it should be encouraged to go after them
- Saxony should own the Erz province and have a shield on it
reasoning: same as above
- Prussia should have shields on Anhalt and Erz
reasoning: Lusatia (i.e. Erz province) and the Northwestern part of Saxony became Prussian by the Congress of Vienna. Prussia should have an incentive to get them.
- Münster should be owned by Prussia and Kleve by Bavaria
reasoning: same as above
- the city of Pfalz should be Neustadt, the city of Mainz Mannheim
reasoning: same as above
- Mecklenburg and Oldenburg should be independent vassals of Prussia and Russia respectively
reasoning: same as above
 
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Twoflower

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Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
I agree on everything except the suppestions for the Kleves and Erz provinces. As long as they have those names you shouldn't use them to represent some other territory in that area IMO.
Probably have to agree on Kleves.
However Erz...
You know that the name "Erz" does not actually refer to a territory, but to the Erz mountains? :D So I'm not using it as an other territory at all. Look at a map, the only territory between Saxony and Silesia IS Lusatia, and after it was ceded to Saxony, there was a direct border between Silesia and Saxony.

EDIT: If you think we should stick to the names in the case of Kleve and Münster, Münster ought to be independent in the 1700 and 1773 scenarios.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(15967)

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the Erz mountains don't lie in Lusatia. And the geographic relations would be all off, too. Erz lies south of saxony, not just east. The problem is that Slesia doesn't go up north even nearly far enough. It should be 2-3 provinces big anyway. Anyway, Erz and Lusatia is a very poor match IMO.

EDIT: yes, Münster shopuld be independent.
 

Twoflower

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Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
the Erz mountains don't lie in Lusatia. And the geographic relations would be all off, too. Erz lies south of saxony, not just east.


Are you referring to the EU2 Erz province? It is northeast of the Sachsen province, certainly not south, that's inarguable (and btw far from the actual Erz mountains ;) ).
 

unmerged(15967)

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The EU2 province is a bit to the south. The northern edge is further south than saxonies northern edge, the city is further south as well. Moreover it has a weird shape and even a border with Moravia.

EDIT: the most important reason against giving Saxony Erz is that it will make the map luck ugly :D
 
Last edited:

Twoflower

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Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
The EU2 province is a bit to the south. The northern edge is further south than saxonies northern edge, the city is further south as well. Moreover it has a weird shape and even a border with Moravia.

Yes, those Bohemian provinces definitely have a terrible shape (e.g. I won't comment on how wrong it is for Moravia to border Krakow). Nevertheless Lusatia extends quite far south; Zittau, the southernmost of the 13 Lusatian towns, is about the same heighth as Dresden, and it definitely is important that Saxony bordered Silesia after acquiring Lusatia. Brandenburg continuing to border Bohemia itself after 1635 certainly looks a lot more weird than Saxony owning Erz.
 

Twoflower

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I didn't want this to be a discussion thread, but rather one where the obvious errors everybody can agree with are listed. So, is anybody opposed to these fixes:

- Saxony removed from the alliance with the Palatinate in 1617
- the Palatinate is leader of an alliance with Hessen and Württemberg in 1617
- Baden, Strassburg, Würzburg, Cologne and Münster are part of the Austro-Bavarian alliance in 1617
- Cologne is a vassal of Bavaria in 1617 and 1700
- Mecklenburg's vassalage to Sweden in 1617 is removed
- Münster is independent in 1700 and 1773
- the city of Pfalz is Neustadt in all scenarios, the city of Mainz Heidelberg in 1492 and 1617 and Mannheim in 1700, 1773 and 1795
- the capital of the Palatinate is in the Mainz province in all scenarios except 1419 (where there is independent Mainz)
- Prussia has a shield on Vorpommern in 1700
- the city of Hinterpommern is Stargard, the city of Vorpommern Stettin in all scenarios before 1773
- the capital of Pommerania is Vorpommern in all scenarios where it exists as independent country
- Hanover has a shield on Bremen in 1700
- Oldenburg is owned by Denmark in 1700
- Mecklenburg and Oldenburg are independent vassals of Prussia and Russia respectively in the 1773 and 1795 scenarios
- Bavaria has shields on Pfalz and Mainz in 1773 and 1795
- Bavaria owns Pfalz and Mainz in 1795 (Palatinate doesn't exist)
- Bavaria has shields on Tirol and Salzburg in 1795
- Prussia has a shield on Anhalt in 1795
 

AndrewT

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- Münster is independent in 1700 and 1773

This seems to contradict what you say in your first post:
1700 - Münster should be owned by Prussia
1773 - Münster should be owned by Prussia

- Hanover has a shield on Bremen in 1700
This is already there

- Oldenburg is owned by Denmark in 1700
I left Hanover with a shield on Oldenberg, and added it into shields, owned and controlled by DAN. I also removed the HAN army that was there.

- Bavaria owns Pfalz and Mainz in 1795 (Palatinate doesn't exist)
Left FRA with shield on Pfalz, removed its army there

- - Mecklenburg and Oldenburg are independent vassals of Prussia and Russia respectively in the 1773 and 1795 scenarios
This means creating whole new countries, is that really what should happen here?