German build up: A simple comparison between a CIC build and pure MIC.

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.867
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
As good as he is, I really don't think SM would even try this in a game.

I have considered a MOT/AC with no air cover build just for the lulz, but that's more about being silly than anything else. Like the time I decided to beat AI France with just divisions of pure INF. (It was a boring way to win, in case anyone was wondering.)

I don't know how many messages I have read where players argue over going cic or mic.

Yep. It's for reference purposes. It's sure as Hell not a blueprint for your own IC build up.

There's another dimension to why I do tests like this. It's related to meta-cognitive analysis, though, so be prepared to be bored if that's not your thing. :)

In gaming today, many players want to know "the meta." They want the optimum strategy to win (or be successful). In MMORPGs, we see this in terms of gear, skill trees, and skill rotations. But it's not just MMOs. You go back to the 90s, and you see it in Age of Empires games where you are supposed to build the second X at time stamp 1:50 in location Y to give you the optimum edge. Everyone blames Starcraft for this sort of thing, but I remember being mocked in Age of Empires by an opponent because I didn't do the meta thing before Starcraft even existed. (He lost, by the way. That's what he gets for wasting time typing troll messages in chat instead of moving peasants to a new resource.)

In Paradox GSGs, players are still looking for "the meta." The problem with this in most of these games is that, while there are better and worse strategies, the idea that there is a meta is misleading due to all the moving parts and unequal starts. I know @Fulmen is in this thread, and he will no doubt remind us that in MP, many strats are meta due to being well tested and applicable in the controlled situations in which those MP games happen. But even he has talked about how changing a few things in terms of what minors are human controlled or what neutrals are allowed to be attacked can result in a wildly different ideal approaches.

This means that even if you find "the meta" for Germany, you haven't really gotten the optimum strategy. With all the variables you have to account for when playing (even when stupid AI allies make life difficult), being slavishly devoted to whatever "the meta" is doesn't really help you be a better or more knowledgeable player. To be knowledgeable and better, you need to understand why a particular meta works well.

Taking this test as an example, let's say you are a advocate for two years of CIC as Germany. That's fine. But you really need to know why it's a good idea, and you should know and understand the trade offs you make with this choice. Factory count by itself doesn't tell you as much as you think it does especially considering that in HOI4, MIC needs time to build production efficiency. Even if I complete 25 military factories today, they aren't making me much for a few weeks.

Where this gets a bit into meta-cognition (which is not a video game meta) is that there is a fundamental difference between blindly following a meta, understanding why that meta works, and understanding the limits of that meta. It's the difference between knowing something and knowing why you know something and knowing the limits of your knowledge.

And against challenging opponents, knowing the limits of a meta and trade offs is pretty damn important. Let me give an example.

Before MtG, we had a game where the Italian player decided he was going to put a significantly larger army than normal in Ethiopia. I was Germany, and I didn't really approve of this. But I'm nothing if not flexible, and I figured that doing something weird and definitely not meta always has value in terms of surprise.

The game goes pretty normal until Italy enters the war. I help them contest the Med, of course, but the real star of the show in January of 1940 is the Italian force in Ethiopia. The British were completely unprepared for this, and even though they were interdicting Italian supplies, the Italian player was doing a good job tactically making life miserable for the British and Dominions. In fact, it got so bad that Britain stripped most of India of its divisions and sent them to Africa.

Now, let's stop right there for a second. Smart players will no doubt be nodding their heads thinking that once the Italians are crushed those divisions can go right back to India. With the Italians half out of supply, it should be easy. But what is happening in this MP game is no longer even cousins with a typical game at this point. Whatever you think the meta is and should be, the situation is different now.

We play MP slow, so while the battle continued in Africa, everyone in the Axis-Japanese channel in Discord began noting increased Indian presence in Africa. Then our Japanese player confirmed the lack of Indian divisions at home covering important things like Burma and various ports. At this point, I called a conference with all humans on our side and asked them whether they were willing to throw caution to the wind and have Japan join the war now. Our Japanese player was fine with it, and the Italian player was willing to keep burning command points on last stand to slow down the British as long as possible. And I committed even more of the Luftwaffe to the Med to make the Allies think a major attack was coming there.

The result was that Italian East Africa did end up falling to the British, but the British army never made it back to India before Japan had DOWed and seized the relevant parts of India. And with the Japanese racing across India towards Iran, a lot of British divisions were stuck in transit and out of position, unable to defend India or the Med. So, a joint German and Italian operation made it to the Suez and Gibraltar and closed the Med.

We won that war hands down, but it sure as Hell wasn't due to anything related to any meta. Instead, we could win through improvisation because we all understood the limits and trade offs associated with various strategies. No one could have even planned for that outcome from the start, and no one on our side would have thought for one minute that India would be bereft of defense.

Someone is about to say, "That's just the British player being stupid" but it's more complicated than that. It's closer to the British player being a slave to the meta. The meta says Japan won't be attacking until 1941 and Ethiopia should fall quickly, so in terms of the meta, it's okay to move a ton of Indian divisions to East Africa just because the Italians are being obstinate. The moment you become a slave to the meta, you become trapped and unable to see opportunities both on your side and enemy side.

I could recount several stories like this one that all show the limits of "the meta." There's the time the Soviets lost all their ports, but were able to survive thanks to pre-researching synthetic rubber techs. There's the time the Germans used nukes to try and crack Soviet defensive lines in 1945. There's the time I ordered the Panama Canal destroyed (I'm still the only person in our group who's ever had to do it). There's the time Japan bypassed India and struck directly at the Middle East, and in that same game, the Soviets attacked Japan to block them (how often do you see Soviet and Japanese forces fighting over Baghdad?). Then there's the game where Britain used tech boosts and design companies to create 1944 light fighters with the light fighter design company in1940, and then picked the strategic bomber design company and applied it to the 1944 strategic bomber in 1941. That game still holds the record for highest percentage of German MIC offline consistently over a period of years. (That was 33-35% of German MIC offline, for those counting.)

HOI4 isn't chess. It's far more complicated than chess. However, there is value in being able to see multiple strategies in your mind and extrapolate from them to desired outcomes, not unlike the greatest chess players do when mapping out moves 20-30 moves ahead of time. Tests like this help provide that kind of data for players.
 
  • 14Like
  • 2
Reactions:

porta80

Captain
21 Badges
Jan 7, 2013
497
306
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Knights of Honor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
Where this gets a bit into meta-cognition (which is not a video game meta) is that there is a fundamental difference between blindly following a meta, understanding why that meta works, and understanding the limits of that meta. It's the difference between knowing something and knowing why you know something and knowing the limits of your knowledge.

Thats the real problem in all games, 95% of the players don't understand the Meta.
 

MR2

Political Operative
22 Badges
Apr 21, 2004
744
649
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
I have considered a MOT/AC with no air cover build just for the lulz, but that's more about being silly than anything else. Like the time I decided to beat AI France with just divisions of pure INF. (It was a boring way to win, in case anyone was wondering.)



Yep. It's for reference purposes. It's sure as Hell not a blueprint for your own IC build up.

There's another dimension to why I do tests like this. It's related to meta-cognitive analysis, though, so be prepared to be bored if that's not your thing. :)

In gaming today, many players want to know "the meta." They want the optimum strategy to win (or be successful). In MMORPGs, we see this in terms of gear, skill trees, and skill rotations. But it's not just MMOs. You go back to the 90s, and you see it in Age of Empires games where you are supposed to build the second X at time stamp 1:50 in location Y to give you the optimum edge. Everyone blames Starcraft for this sort of thing, but I remember being mocked in Age of Empires by an opponent because I didn't do the meta thing before Starcraft even existed. (He lost, by the way. That's what he gets for wasting time typing troll messages in chat instead of moving peasants to a new resource.)

In Paradox GSGs, players are still looking for "the meta." The problem with this in most of these games is that, while there are better and worse strategies, the idea that there is a meta is misleading due to all the moving parts and unequal starts. I know @Fulmen is in this thread, and he will no doubt remind us that in MP, many strats are meta due to being well tested and applicable in the controlled situations in which those MP games happen. But even he has talked about how changing a few things in terms of what minors are human controlled or what neutrals are allowed to be attacked can result in a wildly different ideal approaches.

This means that even if you find "the meta" for Germany, you haven't really gotten the optimum strategy. With all the variables you have to account for when playing (even when stupid AI allies make life difficult), being slavishly devoted to whatever "the meta" is doesn't really help you be a better or more knowledgeable player. To be knowledgeable and better, you need to understand why a particular meta works well.

Taking this test as an example, let's say you are a advocate for two years of CIC as Germany. That's fine. But you really need to know why it's a good idea, and you should know and understand the trade offs you make with this choice. Factory count by itself doesn't tell you as much as you think it does especially considering that in HOI4, MIC needs time to build production efficiency. Even if I complete 25 military factories today, they aren't making me much for a few weeks.

Where this gets a bit into meta-cognition (which is not a video game meta) is that there is a fundamental difference between blindly following a meta, understanding why that meta works, and understanding the limits of that meta. It's the difference between knowing something and knowing why you know something and knowing the limits of your knowledge.

And against challenging opponents, knowing the limits of a meta and trade offs is pretty damn important. Let me give an example.

Before MtG, we had a game where the Italian player decided he was going to put a significantly larger army than normal in Ethiopia. I was Germany, and I didn't really approve of this. But I'm nothing if not flexible, and I figured that doing something weird and definitely not meta always has value in terms of surprise.

The game goes pretty normal until Italy enters the war. I help them contest the Med, of course, but the real star of the show in January of 1940 is the Italian force in Ethiopia. The British were completely unprepared for this, and even though they were interdicting Italian supplies, the Italian player was doing a good job tactically making life miserable for the British and Dominions. In fact, it got so bad that Britain stripped most of India of its divisions and sent them to Africa.

Now, let's stop right there for a second. Smart players will no doubt be nodding their heads thinking that once the Italians are crushed those divisions can go right back to India. With the Italians half out of supply, it should be easy. But what is happening in this MP game is no longer even cousins with a typical game at this point. Whatever you think the meta is and should be, the situation is different now.

We play MP slow, so while the battle continued in Africa, everyone in the Axis-Japanese channel in Discord began noting increased Indian presence in Africa. Then our Japanese player confirmed the lack of Indian divisions at home covering important things like Burma and various ports. At this point, I called a conference with all humans on our side and asked them whether they were willing to throw caution to the wind and have Japan join the war now. Our Japanese player was fine with it, and the Italian player was willing to keep burning command points on last stand to slow down the British as long as possible. And I committed even more of the Luftwaffe to the Med to make the Allies think a major attack was coming there.

The result was that Italian East Africa did end up falling to the British, but the British army never made it back to India before Japan had DOWed and seized the relevant parts of India. And with the Japanese racing across India towards Iran, a lot of British divisions were stuck in transit and out of position, unable to defend India or the Med. So, a joint German and Italian operation made it to the Suez and Gibraltar and closed the Med.

We won that war hands down, but it sure as Hell wasn't due to anything related to any meta. Instead, we could win through improvisation because we all understood the limits and trade offs associated with various strategies. No one could have even planned for that outcome from the start, and no one on our side would have thought for one minute that India would be bereft of defense.

Someone is about to say, "That's just the British player being stupid" but it's more complicated than that. It's closer to the British player being a slave to the meta. The meta says Japan won't be attacking until 1941 and Ethiopia should fall quickly, so in terms of the meta, it's okay to move a ton of Indian divisions to East Africa just because the Italians are being obstinate. The moment you become a slave to the meta, you become trapped and unable to see opportunities both on your side and enemy side.

I could recount several stories like this one that all show the limits of "the meta." There's the time the Soviets lost all their ports, but were able to survive thanks to pre-researching synthetic rubber techs. There's the time the Germans used nukes to try and crack Soviet defensive lines in 1945. There's the time I ordered the Panama Canal destroyed (I'm still the only person in our group who's ever had to do it). There's the time Japan bypassed India and struck directly at the Middle East, and in that same game, the Soviets attacked Japan to block them (how often do you see Soviet and Japanese forces fighting over Baghdad?). Then there's the game where Britain used tech boosts and design companies to create 1944 light fighters with the light fighter design company in1940, and then picked the strategic bomber design company and applied it to the 1944 strategic bomber in 1941. That game still holds the record for highest percentage of German MIC offline consistently over a period of years. (That was 33-35% of German MIC offline, for those counting.)

HOI4 isn't chess. It's far more complicated than chess. However, there is value in being able to see multiple strategies in your mind and extrapolate from them to desired outcomes, not unlike the greatest chess players do when mapping out moves 20-30 moves ahead of time. Tests like this help provide that kind of data for players.
Exactly! Flexability over dogma - but you need to know the dogma in order to be flexible.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

blahmaster6k

Bob Semple Tanker
38 Badges
Feb 8, 2018
2.263
6.212
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
I think a more apt takeaway from secret master's recent comment isn't that being rigid makes you a slave to the meta, but more about how different environments change the meta in ways players might not expect. For example, most servers have full on house rules that do not allow Japan or the USA to join the war until 1941 and also ban Barbarossa before June 1941, but evidently yours does not. With fewer rules you have to take many more possibilities into account, and what may be the best tactic in one server might be completely nonviable in another. For example, before they patched out the one division training exploit. No matter how effective it was at getting army experience, it's suicidal to do it in a server that has no restrictions on early wars.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Harin

General
47 Badges
Jun 8, 2012
1.792
4.026
  • Crusader Kings II
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Thats the real problem in all games, 95% of the players don't understand the Meta.

That is probably a true statement. Unfortunately, many games, including HOI, gives precious little meaningful feedback to determine what the META is, let alone the reason it is the META. Thankfully, we have people like SM and Bitmode, and at least a dozen others who help people like me see some reflection of it.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Harin

General
47 Badges
Jun 8, 2012
1.792
4.026
  • Crusader Kings II
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
To be knowledgeable and better, you need to understand why a particular meta works well.

That one sentence strikes at the heart of why I ask so many questions.

I have dutifully read the current METAs on this forum, but since they do not all make sense historically, a place my limited knowledge comes from, I struggle to understand why the META is what it is. Since it is a game, based in software, built on math using variables I do not see, and causing results that do not always make sense, I truly enjoy the conversations people have on these forums. These conversations make the game clearer to me.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.867
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
but evidently yours does not.

We do, but they have exceptions and workarounds.

For example, the US cannot join the war until either Japan joins or it is January 1st 1942 (or unless attacked). Japan has no real restrictions on attacking Britain or the Allies, because the real restriction on Japan joining early is whether or not they want the US to shift into high gear 12-18 months sooner. That's why we almost never see it.

We allow Barbarossa whenever Germany wants if they can break the NAP. And if Germany wants the tank treaty, they are required to offer the MR Pact. So, Germany has freedom of action in this regard, but the Soviets have to actually pay attention because Germany can't just do whatever they want whenever they want. They have to telegraph their intentions a bit.

We don't allow manual justifications before there is a war between majors, and we don't allow humans to refuse Rhineland, Anschluss, or the Munich chain. So, Germany has to run the NFs leading to Danzig. This also encourages Germany to grab the free stuff rather than try to plunge Europe into a major war early by beelining for Danzig (although I have been party to strategy discussions that revolve around the viability of a 38 Danzig).

We also have special decisions for Iran and a couple of other places to allow historical Allied interventions. And we give certain neutrals a national spirit that makes it hard to justify against them. And we have some special rules related to who wins the SCW due to how countries join factions.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

blahmaster6k

Bob Semple Tanker
38 Badges
Feb 8, 2018
2.263
6.212
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
We do, but they have exceptions and workarounds.

For example, the US cannot join the war until either Japan joins or it is January 1st 1942 (or unless attacked). Japan has no real restrictions on attacking Britain or the Allies, because the real restriction on Japan joining early is whether or not they want the US to shift into high gear 12-18 months sooner. That's why we almost never see it.

We allow Barbarossa whenever Germany wants if they can break the NAP. And if Germany wants the tank treaty, they are required to offer the MR Pact. So, Germany has freedom of action in this regard, but the Soviets have to actually pay attention because Germany can't just do whatever they want whenever they want. They have to telegraph their intentions a bit.

We don't allow manual justifications before there is a war between majors, and we don't allow humans to refuse Rhineland, Anschluss, or the Munich chain. So, Germany has to run the NFs leading to Danzig. This also encourages Germany to grab the free stuff rather than try to plunge Europe into a major war early by beelining for Danzig (although I have been party to strategy discussions that revolve around the viability of a 38 Danzig).

We also have special decisions for Iran and a couple of other places to allow historical Allied interventions. And we give certain neutrals a national spirit that makes it hard to justify against them. And we have some special rules related to who wins the SCW due to how countries join factions.
Thanks for the detailed response! I'm curious, what does your mod do to the USA? In vanilla the USA pretty much gets off of the great depression and onto partial mobilization in 1937/38 at the latest, so what you said about waking up the USA earlier is pretty much irrelevant. If anything what you said further reinforces to me the idea that the meta is completely dependent on what the rules allow, with more variance when the game/rules railroad the player less.
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.867
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
further reinforces to me the idea that the meta is completely dependent on what the rules allow, with more variance when the game/rules railroad the player less.

Oh, it does. Don't take my response as a refutation of your position. I agree. I just didn't want you to think we let countries just do whatever. We have rules, just some of them are not outright bans of behavior, but more like steering of behavior with consequences.

As for the US, I didn't play in this last round with LaR, so I'm not sure what we changed there. But yeah, in the current game in vanilla, the US wakes up even sooner for some odd reason.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

SophieX

Major
May 9, 2014
558
505
Especially about the doctrines, I bet 95% would tell me Meta is to go SF but not a single one could give me the right answer why it is ;-)

I rarely use SF; mostly mobile Warfare due to tank buffs. Sometimes Mass-Assault due to the reduced combat with for infantry.
I would use SF more often, if the game would offer to allow "firing" artillery standing in the "second" line ( one tile behind the front ). Like artillery-regiment in reality, which were deployed some kilometers behind the combat line.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Simon_9732495

Lt. General
25 Badges
Feb 28, 2020
1.601
4.177
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
Just tested the MIC build.

Facts:

Economy July 1941:

  • MIC: 242
  • CIC: 176
  • Docks: 33
  • Refineries: 15
  • Fuel Silos: 14

Stockpile July 1941:
  • Infantry Eq.: 445k
  • Support Eq.: 18k
  • Artillery: 6k
  • Motorized: 12k
  • Tank Medium2: 6k
  • Tank Medium3: 20k
  • Fighter1: 6k
  • Fighter2: 4k
  • Cas1: 1k
  • Tac 0/1: 1k
I fielded 34 Tanks with 15/5 template, 120 Infantry Divisions with 10/0 template and 6k Fighters for Barbarossa


Feelings:

In 1939 I had the feeling that building was going veeerrryyy slow.
When the war started it was great to have so many airplanes. I was not used to this.
Later on I felt that my plane count is not growing as fast as normally.
I ended up having not that many fighters for Barbarossa i normaly used to have.
Tank production was great.
(In retrospective should have maybe put a little more on planes, a little less on Tanks)
During Barbarossa as I had to import a lot of oil and had a very long repair queue some CICs more would have been fine.



Results:

I was playing vanilla all dlc against a maximum buffed Soviet Union (slider "strengthen soviet" to max) and didnt touch them until July 1941.
War going easy. They capitulated around Christmas 1941 as I captured Murmansk, Archelansk and Perm. (Without doing collaboration goverment on Russia. Did it on 4 other countries though.)

~1:50 casualties vs Soviet Union
~1:40 casualties vs All

losses2.png



Conclusion:

Works very good.
Especially getting the figthers early on was very nice.
I will take concentrating on MICs early on into account if doing a strategy for a country in the future.
 
  • 4
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
I won't speak for other groups, but in our case, we mod the game to achieve a couple of goals.

1) When possible, we like to mod the game to make it so that house rules stop being house rules and instead are just in the game. For example, we got tired of Turkey's neutrality being violated every single game by the Axis. So, we created a special national spirit that makes it hard to justify on Turkey unless certain conditions are fulfilled instead of just having a house rule about leaving Turkey alone. (The reason we want Turkey to be neutral most of the time is related to how the AI runs the country and refuses to defend the #$%^&*ing straits, making it impossible for Britain or the Allies to really help when the Axis attacks.)

I know it´s a bit off topic (maybe make a thread for this) but IMO the best way to balance adventures in Turkey is balancing supply. After all, eastern Turkey was so hilly that supplying more than 50k troops would be hell. Going for Baku? Easily repelled by the soviets. Not to mention that, well, the Axis needs to CROSS the straits to supply, which might not be that easy.
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.867
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
I know it´s a bit off topic (maybe make a thread for this) but IMO the best way to balance adventures in Turkey is balancing supply. After all, eastern Turkey was so hilly that supplying more than 50k troops would be hell. Going for Baku? Easily repelled by the soviets. Not to mention that, well, the Axis needs to CROSS the straits to supply, which might not be that easy.

If we could have done that, we probably would have. But the supply system in HOI4 isn't really set up to let us make Anatolia and the straits much worse in terms of supply. At least not in a way that would stop Germany. Again, if Turkey would just defend the straits properly, this wouldn't be as big of a problem.

It's worth noting that going for Baku isn't the only reason for the Axis to hit Turkey. The other reason is that Guderian and his panzers can cross the straits and drive to Beirut in a week or two. Putting pressure on the Suez from the other direction is a big problem for Britain. Defending El Alamein is easy. Defending the Suez from the east? Not nearly as easy if the Germans are driving supplies overland to supply troops driving through Palestine.

I would know, because I've done it before. More than once, actually. One day, I'll tell you about Axis Torch landings in Morocco coupled with Guderian's drive through Anatolia.

And screwing Britain in the Med doesn't require actual occuption of the Suez. If you control only one bank of the Suez, it makes the Suez impassable to both sides. Coupled with either Axis control of Spanish Morocco or seizing Gibraltar, and the Med is effectively sealed even if Cairo is still British.
 
  • 3Like
  • 3
Reactions:

28lobster

Fleet Admiral
60 Badges
Jan 14, 2014
11
27
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Both builds here should start with changing to free trade. The main advantage of civs first is not needing trade until 38. All I see from the initial screenshots is evidence that making early mils gets you more starting tech. Starting tech is worthless in MP except support equipment. You want MT2/MT3/fighter 2 production maximized. Support equipment and motorized are the only starting techs that you'll still be producing by 1938, motorized is mostly phased out for mech/amtrac by 40-41.

What I really get out of this is the CiC build has more total factories and more mils by 1940. So by the time Panthers unlock (mid-late 1940) you'll have way more factories to add to them. Even if you're converting max efficiency MT2 with dispersed 4, you'll get 56% efficiency (roughly) on your MT3 and 30% base. I'd rather have more total factories even if many are just added at base efficiency. Besides, the large chunk of Germany's factories that come from conquest are starting at base efficiency no matter what.

I get why you used AC to test numbers but it's just not realistic. There's a lot of MP stuff that's hard to model in an SP test. Are you going to tag switch to enforce tradebacks/boosting? Are you going to convert France's civs to mils? All of this benefits CiC further over MiC but would be an absolute bore to test and I don't blame SM for avoiding it.

Edit: Upon further reflection, why test with AC? The AI certainly won't build any MT3 before 1941 and you can check equipment tabs to see if any AI mediums got mixed in to your divisions. Would work the same for fighter 2, even name the variants to make them stand out.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:

blahmaster6k

Bob Semple Tanker
38 Badges
Feb 8, 2018
2.263
6.212
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Both builds here should start with changing to free trade. The main advantage of civs first is not needing trade until 38. All I see from the initial screenshots is evidence that making early mils gets you more starting tech. Starting tech is worthless in MP except support equipment. You want MT2/MT3/fighter 2 production maximized. Support equipment and motorized are the only starting techs that you'll still be producing by 1938, motorized is mostly phased out for mech/amtrac by 40-41.

What I really get out of this is the CiC build has more total factories and more mils by 1940. So by the time Panthers unlock (mid-late 1940) you'll have way more factories to add to them. Even if you're converting max efficiency MT2 with dispersed 4, you'll get 56% efficiency (roughly) on your MT3 and 30% base. I'd rather have more total factories even if many are just added at base efficiency. Besides, the large chunk of Germany's factories that come from conquest are starting at base efficiency no matter what.

I get why you used AC to test numbers but it's just not realistic. There's a lot of MP stuff that's hard to model in an SP test. Are you going to tag switch to enforce tradebacks/boosting? Are you going to convert France's civs to mils? All of this benefits CiC further over MiC.
Welcome to the forums! I believe I've seen you elsewhere before, but welcome here!

I agree with all these points, but having started looking at more historical mods, it just makes me sadly realize how many things don't make sense in vanilla hoi4. Reading your line about it being normal to unlock Panthers in mid-late 1940, just the idea of Panthers in 1940 instead of Pz 1/2/3 being the backbone of the Panzer Divisions (and tech rushing in general) just shouldn't exist in their current state in my opinion.
 
  • 4
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Gefallener_Held

General
36 Badges
Oct 19, 2010
2.144
765
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
Welcome to the forums! I believe I've seen you elsewhere before, but welcome here!

I agree with all these points, but having started looking at more historical mods, it just makes me sadly realize how many things don't make sense in vanilla hoi4. Reading your line about it being normal to unlock Panthers in mid-late 1940, just the idea of Panthers in 1940 instead of Pz 1/2/3 being the backbone of the Panzer Divisions (and tech rushing in general) just shouldn't exist in their current state in my opinion.
Yeah and Germany has a lot to research so I am not sure rushing tech kore than half a year out is wise....
That said, I still the difference between cic and mic builds about a wash in terms of mic factories, except that one gives me a suitable foundation civilian factories the other does not.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

dasaard200

Major
10 Badges
Feb 3, 2017
728
157
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
I'll go with full CF builds in '36-'38, AND WFs from NFs only; this assumes that the AI does not 'buy in' with traded CFs .
("Yngvi's gotta a LOT of [THIS], let's grab it before HE can get to it !!") .

I've had a few learning games as USSR way back in 1.3, that proved the CF building program versus the all WF disasters in early games .
I'll admit to going to a CF building sequence once I have War Economy in '36, then full WFs by September of '38 ... and doing the 1 CF: 3 WF ratio by '42 .
There are never enough CFs to do what you WANT to; but maybe what you CAN do (grumble) !